So, I couldn't really hold this in much longer. There's a church here in Waco that is Acts based (the speak in tongues type of churches), and I used to go to it. In the process of going there, I kept feeling like the value of my life diminished. They preach way too much about the spiritual life and how the physical life is sh*t. They make it sound too much like the human life is nothing and cannot stand alone with God or Jesus. While we're weak in comparison, we can stand on our own. If we couldn't why were we created? If the human existence was worthless, why did God decide that we should exist? The human life does have value and there is a reason why we exist.

This church also says that we must free ourselves of the materialistic world and help those that are worse off than we are. Pretty much, go on missionaries in distant countries that are dangerous and put lives at risk. While it is a nice gesture to do so, not everyone is made for that. Plus, no life should be more important than another, well, if you neglect to mention the bastards in this world that create havoc and whatnot. Anyway, I feel as though my job should be to help those around me that I care about. Others may not see it the same way, but I feel that some of us have different people to help and love. For me, it's here with my friends and family. For others, it may be those less fortunate.

I'm just tired of people from that church saying that we're wicked and vile and sh*t just because we sin. Yes, we sin day in and day out, but does that destroy the value of our lives? Of course not. The main thing is that we try to at least make up for the mistakes we've made. Even if we don't make up for it completely, we can at least make an effort. Isn't that what matters? Not all of us walk the same path that those Acts people do, and that should be perfectly okay. We all have differing opinions and views on the Bible. What TRULY matters is that we follow what we believe and try to reach our final destination without feeling any doubt or regret along the way.

I honestly can't think of anything to add to this conversation besides "I wholeheartedly agree". Except I'm not much of a helpful person. I might occasionally do random small acts of kindness like hold open a door for a lady in a wheelchair, but most of the time I stick with myself and my own problems.

Which is perfectly fine. Not everyone is made to help people. As long as you lead a good life, I think you're good and will be fine.

I'll help anytime i'm needed, I've helped a lot of people. human lives do have value, which i have to agree with kratos.

You will face HELLFIRE AND BRIMSTONE, if you don't believe in Jesus. If baptist church ever taught me anything, it's it doesn't matter how good of a person you are, you don't goto Heaven unless you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. I hear he does house calls as well so you should look him up in the Celestial Directory.

So if you couldn't tell, I agree with Kratos, as I think that if everyone tried to take care of their own problems first then seek help, we wouldn't need as many acts of kindness. So if I have some extra time, and someone mentions someone needs help, or one of my friends and family say they need help, then sure I'll help someone out. And if I can actually look into where the money in a charity goes exactly, and see that they are actually helping people to subsist on their own, and not just giving out handouts all the time, and I have some extra money, then sure I'll give.

Plus I personally think this life we have now is the most important and should be cherished above all else (except maybe someone else's life, but that's your call). Beyond this NO ONE really knows what's going to happen. Sure they may have a "holy" scripture, or a belief system that's older than time (which BTW about 90% of religions are not), but they don't know more than anyone else exactly what happens after death, if indeed anything else does at all.

So of course everyone is entitled to their opinion on what the purpose of life is, and you can't really prove any of them wrong, unless you actually found the Creators hotline number. But really your life is yours so I think you should be able to do what you want with it, as long as it doesn't put others lives in high danger. Trying to rank lives based on acts is doomed to high subjectivity based on the people judged, the society or groups of people judging, and what the world as a whole finds important at that given moment. Not that it's not ever useful, but it should be taken with a grain of salt, as the definition of good and bad change often (though somethings stay in one category or the other for long periods of time).

Also I believe more in helping people to help themselves, than just helping people. Sure there are some people who just need a few handouts to get by while they work on getting on track, but most people need help getting on track, not a couple of meals to tie them over until the next supply plane comes in. As for the Christians, most of the time their help comes with a price, having to listen to them constantly talk about how they're right and everyone else is wrong (like a majority of other religions), not a high price to pay, as you only have to listen (though they are not above giving out major guilt trips), but still something in return for their help. Of course I'm also of the opinion that most selfless acts are really selfish (not meaning it's a bad thing), in that most of the time people help others for the good feeling they get for helping other people. Not a bad thing in any case, but it's hard to find someone who can help someone with out some kind of expectance of getting something in return for that help (whether it be as benign as the satisfaction of helping others or a thank you, or wanting other to believe in your religion by seeing your actions because of said religion, or other forms of "remember when I helped you that one time").

So of course life has value, how much an individual one has is quite debatable, and there is really no objective way to put it besides one 6 billionth of the total lives available. Being a westerner and a firm believer in independence (and also along with that personal responsibility), I think everyone should help themselves, and then help others. Because it's pretty hard to help others when you're struggling as well. And if you're going to help people, don't just give them a bandaid, give them some antiinfection medicine as well as the instructions to make bandaids. This way the won't need you're bandaid anymore, and then they can start helping others now that there problems are solved.

I also occatianly help others and I thought I was a pretty good person, and then i went to church for the first time in my life and they basically told me that most things I've done are bad. I think that you should always try to do what you think is right and not tell people what they're doing is bad or what they believe is wrong.

Churches are turning into places where the priest thinks he has the authority to tell you what is right and wrong. I like the churches that don't do that, you know, like encourage you, lift your spirits, make you know you're worth something and make you feel like you can do more than what you do now. Hard to find those types of churches.

I go to Baptist churches, so there's very little fire and brimstone speech.

Everyone's calling is different. Just because you might not want to go somewhere, you can still help people locally.

I've always been told hate the sin, not the sinner.

I go to a church, and I have to say I love it. Sometimes people look for a church where they can feel comfortable, were they are not challenged to be a better person. I have been challenged so many times, but not with threaths of "If you don't do this or that, you are going to hell" but with love (As Kratos said, lifting spirits and all that stuff) but there are times when you ARE doing some things wrong, and of course, you might feel uncomfortable about it when someone points them, but if your love for God is greater than your pride, and you feel the people who surround you actually want to help you and are not pointing out the bad stuff to feel they are bettr than you, then it's easier to deal with it.
And human life does have value. Why else would have God gave up his Son's life?
One of the commandments God gave us was to love our neighbors as ourselves. So yes, helping is good, but doing good deeds is not what earns us Salvation. That's something we should do as way of thanks (Couldn't find the way to put it in English, but I hope you undrstand what I want to say)
Even so, I don't think that just trying to lead a good life is enough, but I don't go condemning people who thinks or acts different thatn myself. (As Ixzion said: Love the sinner, not the sin)
Every one has different gifts (and don't mean speaking in tongues) and I believe we should use them. If your gift is to serve, then serve, but there are other ways of doing your part.

If I somehow or someway offended someone, that wasn't my intention. I don't really like to debate about this kind of topics on online forums.

that was smart.

seriously... you can't do one thousandth of what you can do with remonstration as you can do with sympathy. i hear what KA says, and in all honesty, i'd advise you to do what i should've done and find a better church.

i haven't been to church in years and years.. except the occasional times when i'd go with my grandparents to their church, if they ask me to.

*shrug*

actually, though, i've never met such a bunch of outright propagandists as the University Christian Union. they're unbelievable....

i could totally rant about those b*stards. XD but i'll spare you, since it's kinda off topic and boring to boot.

First: Don't use big words on me. I had to look up what remonstration means

Second: It's not like they have told me to not do certain things. It's just that there are some things that are hard for me to put in understandable English. They might give me councel, but it's up to me if I decide to follow it or not. Anyway, as I've said, I'm quite happy there. I don't know how to explain it... so I just won't
But thanks for your concern.

oh, no... that was directed at KA, that bit about finding a better church. i meant a better church that was more LIKE yours!

O_o sorry bud, now i look at it that does seem pretty vague and all... >_<;;

in fact, i don't know what i was doing suggesting that other people find better churches in the first place. seems kinda impolite...

I've been to two different churches, Baptist and Catholic.

It's...interesting indeed.

Oh! You know, I thought I was horribly confused by your previous post. (And it turns out that I was indeed horribly confused) I didn't know exacly what to answer. But it's ok.

Guarionex wrote:


... No, Guarionex; I believe what you've just said is quite right, and you appear to have said it in as little a critical or judgmental way as possible (an attribute that us Christians are sadly lacking most of the time).

Heh, I can't say I've seen a more one sided topic before.

And I, too boot, also agree.

I believe that one's way to Heaven is thier own personal relationship with the Lord. If you feel that the Lord is telling you to do specific things, good. But never let a preacher tell you what to do, or be condemed to the bowels of Hell.

That is what bugs me about churches today. There are no denominations in my book. I mean, they all point to the same God, right? Also, churches today are losing the point here. They argue too much over if it's right to play instruments while singing or not. Recently there was a church who's name was "2nd Babtist Church" who spend forever trying to change their name because, "We don't think we are second to ANYONE".

Now they are named "Cross Life". A church who is more worried about ranks an names pulls from the reason of there even being a church in the first place... and I haven't been back to that building sence.

I'd also like to add churches that single people out. I was babtised into the Christian faith in 1996. I would consider myself part of the body of Christ. So I take part in communion and such. There have been churches that would actually ask me not to take part in communion because I wasn't SPECIFICALLY a member of their church. I felt that it wasn't right to not exclude me, even though I was a part of the "family".

And here's the funny thing, they were more than willing to let me partake in the offering.

... I passed though.

Once I move back to El Dorado... I'm going to go back to the church I grew up in. A church that seemed less worried about all the BS and focuses on God. Something that seems harder to come by today.

I don't go to church my self. For a few reasons. For one I'm Jewish. Well sometimes. Like on the Jewish holidays. I never been in a temple. I enjoy all the holidays. Christmas, Easter, But to me the holidays have a different meaning. It's not about Jesus. It's about spending time with the family and to be giving. Not to be selfish. Easter is more about the joy of spring being here and the birth of life. Even though its when Jesus past on.

The Jewish people believe that Jesus was not the son of god. However he was a good man who did good deeds for people. And then the Romans put him on the cross.

So when I go to church it's kinda hard for me to fit in when everyone is saying Jesus is god! Love and pray to
Jesus. Just the same I know a lot of people who don't understand why people pray to mother marry.

Thats part of it..

The other part is.. I met a lot of "strange ones" going to churches. I met people who really think they can see Jesus or Marries face in/on anything. Clouds, tattoos, drawings, ect. And they swear by it. It must mean something! They say. I also met people who think that god gave them magic powers. And there powers will grow strong with every good deed they do. Like this one guy swears that he woke up one day and knew how to speak in 5 different lang. That he never knew. Or he can heal people with his hands and mind. Or he sees things that are going to happen before they happen.

Heres a funny link. Take a look.

http://my.slashfood.com/2006/08/18/virgin-mary-found-in-chocolate/

I can't really relate to these kinds of people.

Yes, I believe that people should love and help one and other. But it should not become something like selling girl scout cookies to raise enough money to go to that awesome field trip. Heaven that is.. We should do it because everyone deserves to be loved and cared for no matter what happens. Because it's in our nature to be kind creatures as man.



These are some really good quotes. And I believe these words full heartedly.

Not to be an ass, but Easter is the celebration of the resurection of Christ.

Well yeah, He pasted on. He floated up to heaven and stuff.

We should all be so lucky.

Actually, more like un-died. Alive and well when he raised to the sky.

Anyway, churches that aren't open to anyone aren't much of a church. Glad mine is different. Everyone can come up for communion even if they aren't a member of the church. And kids can come along for treats on Halloween even if their parents aren't members of the church.