Lets talk Final Fantasy XII

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 4:17 pm

Oh don't give me that bs. They didn't just rename the summons. They are not the same things. I don't care what anyone says. And Belias is one of the only ones that's even close.

And I'm sorry. If we were gonna have espers again why not go back to well...ya know...the espers?

Lantis · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 4:31 pm

Quote:

Kajak KLF: Belias is not f*ckin ifrit
Kajak KLF: they didn't just rename them
Lantis: wtf ever
Lantis: he's the fire esper
Lantis: wtf do you think that relates to?
Lantis: ifrit, you dolt
Kajak KLF: no
Kajak KLF: ass
Lantis: just like how cazlcot or wtf ever was ramuh in 8
Kajak KLF: I think that relates to being the fire esper
Kajak KLF: quezlcoatl
Lantis: and what's the original name for the fire esper?
Lantis: huh?
Lantis: HUH!
Kajak KLF: omfg
Kajak KLF: why don't you tell me
Kajak KLF: oh grand master
Lantis: ifrit
Lantis: ...
Lantis: was that so f*cking hard?
Kajak KLF: .....
Kajak KLF: ummmm
Kajak KLF: I so thought you were talking about something else
Kajak KLF: lol
Kajak KLF: hahah
Kajak KLF: no sh*t ifrit is the original
Kajak KLF: my point is that they have none of the original...hell..none of any of them
Kajak KLF: and that's one of things you could always find in FF games
Lantis: DUDE
Lantis: FIRE ELEMENT BELIAS IS THE SAME AS FIRE ELEMENT IFRIT
Lantis: FIRE IS ORIGIAL
Kajak KLF: ifrit is original
Kajak KLF: fire was from cavemen
Lantis: dude
Kajak KLF: lol
Kajak KLF: dude
Lantis: so you want a belias AND an ifrit?
Lantis: thats stupid
Kajak KLF: No
Kajak KLF: I don't want a belias and an ifrit
Kajak KLF: what I was saying is there a very few constants in the final fantasy games
Kajak KLF: buit they're part of what makes them final fantasy
Lantis: sigh
Lantis: whatever...
Kajak KLF: when you kill that you kill the name final fantasy
Lantis: FF still has alot of that sh*t
Lantis: item names, enemies, music
Lantis: spells
Kajak KLF: I know
Lantis: Cid?
Lantis: every game
Lantis: so quit b*tching
Kajak KLF: my point is they are stepping away from that
Kajak KLF: ass
Kajak KLF: I'm not b*tching
Kajak KLF: I'm pointing out a fact
Kajak KLF: fuckstick
Kajak KLF: They are stepping further and further away
Kajak KLF: and the further they move away the less and less it becomes final fantasy
Lantis: dude
Lantis: it's always going to be final fantasy
Lantis: just because it doesn't have the sh*t YOU want
Kajak KLF: no
Kajak KLF: Dude
Kajak KLF: stop that
Lantis: nevar!
Kajak KLF: stop making it sound Like I'm some biased fuckstick
Lantis: you are bias
Kajak KLF: I gave the game the credit it deserved
Lantis: you want it your way
Kajak KLF: I played all the way through it
Lantis: and if it's not your way... it's not final fantasy
Kajak KLF: it was a great game
Kajak KLF: That's not what I'm saying god damnit
Lantis: not directly
Kajak KLF: what is the name final fantasy
Lantis: but in a way
Lantis: titles that Square Enix make
Kajak KLF: So Vagrant story is ff
Kajak KLF: saga frontier is ff
Lantis: fine
Kajak KLF: bs
Kajak KLF: what is the name ff
Lantis: a series that square enix makes
Kajak KLF: Saga frontier is a series that square enix makes....is it ff?
Kajak KLF: no
Kajak KLF: what is ff
Lantis: stfu... you know what final fantasy is...
Kajak KLF: Exactly f*cker
Kajak KLF: I know what it is
Kajak KLF: so stop acting like I don't
Kajak KLF: you know what it is too
Lantis: I never said you didn't!
Lantis: I'm saying you are being way too f*cking picky
Kajak KLF: fair enough
Kajak KLF: I'm not being to picky dude
Lantis: okay...
Lantis: you are being scared of change
Lantis: take your pick
Kajak KLF: there are very few things that make a final fantasy
Kajak KLF: omfg
Kajak KLF: you know my ideas for games...I love innovation
Kajak KLF: hell I love the battle system for 12
Lantis: then wtf is the problem?!
Kajak KLF: it kicks ass
Kajak KLF: the problem is that there are very few things that make a Final Fantasy title a ff title......And they eliminated one of those in 12....
Lantis: omg
Kajak KLF: that's my only beef dude
Kajak KLF: that's it
Lantis: so if there are key things that were in past final fantasies... that arent anymore... you say that it's not final fantasy... even if that's the f*cking TITLE?!
Kajak KLF: It just doesn't give me the same feeling that other final fantasies did dude.....it doesn't feel like ff to me
Kajak KLF: and one of the reason I think that is is because they are pushing so much for originality
Lantis: well, I guess that automatically makes it not final fantasy then...
Kajak KLF: It's a great game
Kajak KLF: I honestly think that
Kajak KLF: everyone should get a chance to play it
Kajak KLF: but I feel like it's walking away from the FF name
Lantis: like me... but I'm too busy trying to get your punk ass to quit being a b*tch
Kajak KLF: Lmao
Kajak KLF: I'm not b*tching
Lantis: yeah... you are.... over stupid pety sh*t
Lantis: and over it, threaten the entire series
Kajak KLF: omfg
Lantis: just because you don't think it 'feels' like it
Kajak KLF: and here we go again
Lantis: again?
Lantis: we never had closure in the first place
Kajak KLF: Lol..why is my opinion on it stupid pety sh*t?
Lantis: well
Lantis: cause it is?
Lantis: maybe?
Kajak KLF: that threatens the entire series?
Lantis: well
Kajak KLF: how the f*ck am I threatening the series?>
Lantis: not the series on a whole... but for you specifically
Kajak KLF: how?
Lantis: omg, because you say it's stepping away from FF...
Kajak KLF: am i gonnastart hating the pther ff games because i liked ff12?
Lantis: no
Lantis: because it has the same sh*t you like
Kajak KLF: I had a complaint about it
Kajak KLF: that's it
Kajak KLF: doesn't mean I'll dislike the series now
Lantis: but the problem is, you take it out of praporiton
Kajak KLF: doesn't mean I'll dislike the next FF game
Kajak KLF: I'm not taking it out of proportion
Kajak KLF: how the hell am I?
Lantis: because you say the series is pulling away from BEING final fantasy because it doesn't have old content
Lantis: am I wrong?
Kajak KLF: FF12 does not give me the same feeling that other FF titles have given me. I think this is partially because it is trying so hard for originality.. That is my statement
Lantis: dude
Kajak KLF: that means I feel as though ff12 is stepping away from the ff name
Lantis: FF has always been original
Lantis: every single game
Kajak KLF: and I'm afraid that future games might take it further
Kajak KLF: I know this
Lantis: are you trying to say that they are TOO original?
Lantis: *waits*
Lantis: *continues waiting*
Lantis: *waits some more*
Kajak KLF: no
Kajak KLF: damnit jay
Kajak KLF: I'm saying that every ff game
Kajak KLF: is built as an original
Lantis: k
Lantis: I agree
Kajak KLF: with certain things to keep them tied together
Lantis: why do they have to be tied together at all?
Lantis: what law is written?
Kajak KLF: no law
Kajak KLF: that's just the way it has been
Kajak KLF: so when they change that
Kajak KLF: and it feels different to me
Lantis: the only thing that should have to tie them together is the title "FINAL FANTASY"
Kajak KLF: don't b*tch at me for saying it
Kajak KLF: damnit jay
Kajak KLF: that's not just it
Kajak KLF: I didn't get the feeling of Final fantasy when I played it
Kajak KLF: it just didn't give it to me
Kajak KLF: every other final fintasy has (with the exception of 11 which I do not count as final fantasy)
Kajak KLF: I'm sorry
Kajak KLF: it just didn't make me feel it
Lantis: I'm getting a FF feel from 12...
Kajak KLF: ok
Lantis: I mean, I can't see how you really don't
Kajak KLF: that's great

Kittykicker · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 6:17 pm

I feel anger from that chat about FF. I don't think that ff12 is trying to step away from the others. Every ff is different. And as the years go on, the people who make games try to make things seem more real. I think real time battle is awesome. But maybe its not the way others would like it.
Maybe if they made it a bit more like Zelda or C. Trigger it would be more enjoyable.. Maybe....

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 6:22 pm

Honestly I love the battle system..I think it's incredible.

That not why I have a problem with the game...Well. Honestly I don't have a problem.. I think it's a wonderful game. It just doesn't feel like Final Fantasy to me....Great game.. Just it feels like the name was just tagged on.

Kittykicker · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 6:28 pm

Well can you compare the idea of the new FF12 to another game you know? Maybe then your idea of it "tagging" will come to light for all of us.

Lantis · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 6:32 pm

I really don't see the problem... I think Kajak is just a wee bit too picky.

Kittykicker · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 6:35 pm

He has that right.. like us all.

I really think you can't fully judge a game anyways unless you play the full game through. Some times theres other things about a game that you like.

ErikaFuzzbottom · **Posted:** February 1st, 2007, 7:20 pm

Allow me to start by saying I agree with Kajak, in that Final Fantasy 12 is different from traditional Final Fantasy. In fact, the last traditional FF game we got was FF9. Why? Let's start with the world maps. Final Fantasy 9 was the last FF game to have traditional world maps. FF10-12 instead opt for having each area directly connected by monster-filled trails. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing (except in FF10's case, those trails were a bit too linear). It just deviates from what Final Fantasy normally has.

The Battle System. Every Final Fantasy battle system is different, to be sure. But they usually follow the basic rules of warping to a battle arena, where each party sits on opposite ends of the playing field, waiting for their ATB guages to fill up so they can pummel the enemy with physical attacks and magic spells.

FF10 scraps the ATB guage, and you have to think about what attacks to use on what enemy. Use fire spells on those elementals, have Riku take apart robots, Wakka's great against flying enemies, etc.. And the order of attack is also more important than usual, playing a part in that strategy from time to time. I'm not saying it's a bad battle system. In fact, I like the extra strategy. Meanwhile, those who don't have an "if it's not broke, don't fix it" mentality.

FF12 gains back an ATB guage of sorts and drops the extra strategy. But you're no longer dropped into a battle arena for every fight. Instead you run around in real time, and are usually only controlling a single party member. Again, I'm not saying it's a bad battle system. I do like it, and that battle system wouldn't have worked if you warped to a battle field with each party on opposing sides. It's just not quite the same. More minor points being the understandable lack of a regular battle theme, and of course the traditional summons being gone (Belias and Ifrit are both fire summons; that's their only similarity), but I'm not complaining about that.

FF11 is Final Fantasy Online. It shouldn't have been in the numbered games.

FF10-2 I've never played, so I can only comment on how it breaks tradition by being a direct sequel.

Anyway, in the end, when I play FF10 and FF12, I don't feel like I'm playing Final Fantasy. There are some familiar elements, but the two deviate from FF9 and each other more than the other FF games deviate from each other.

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 11:43 am

Honestly I've played through the entire game and beaten it. (I've done that with every FF game and will continue to.) IN fact I'm actually playing through it again in the hopes to find that FF feeling.

The game honestly is a great game, and there are only minor (very minor) complaints I have about it. It just, like Draygone said, doesn't feel like I'm playing a Final Fantasy title when I'm playing it.

Actually I should change that. I know it's a FF title. And I do feel the similarities. How about this. When I play it I feel that it's leaning away from being a FF title. (btw I never said that was a bad thing Lantis. I just said it doesn't feel the same. If you remember correctly I continually give the game huge props.)

If anything I feel like the game could have just been a stand alone title. And maybe that's a good thing. I kinda think Square (and now Squenix) has been riding the FF horse (or chocobo as the case may be) for a bit to long. Maybe it's time thy tried having a major title that didn't get all it's publicity from being a FF game.

Lantis · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 12:01 pm

Lmao... Squenix

And screw you. They shouldn't make stand alone titles. I mean, why?

Besides, that's on the assumtion that YOU didn't feel the grand FF experience. And while I agree fully on your take on FF11... I'm not so sharing about the rest.

Who didn't fall in love with the characters of X? I mean, you can't say 'Wakka' without thinking about some wavy haird dude throwing a blitzball at stuff. Or Lulu without thinking about... well... >______> you know.

I have a hard time not feeling all Final Fantasy-ish when I fight a bomb... or summon Bahamut... or listen to the theme... or cast ultima... or even use a pheonix down.

::edit::

And when did I ever say that you or Dray didn't like the game?

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 12:08 pm

If I remember correctly the only FF I didn't get the feel from was 12 (once again 11 doesn't count cause it's crap). I so fell in love with the characters of 10 lol. It was great. Oh and btw Lantis. How am I supposed to feel all final fantasy-ish when I summon bahamut in FF12? That's right I forgot I can't

Lantis · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 12:28 pm

Okay, so you nailed me on that one account. But there's plenty of elements you can't deny. And I was also somewhat replying to Dray about FFX.

Okay, no Bahamut... but don't push all the other blatently obvious FF-esque out of the picture. But even if you do... it really doesn't matter to me. I expect every Final Fantasy to be diffrent. And if they take something out, it's because they want to... well, try something diffrent... like that always have. You've just have to be open to those changes.

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 12:36 pm

Lol. Lantis. I'm very open to changes. I love the innovations they made in 12... it's a wonderful game. The battle and gambit system is awesome. And even though I dislike the license system I must admit it was kinda an interesting thought. But honestly. Give me a reason why they had to change the summons? Because they felt like it? Fine. That's their right. And it's my right to feel as though that decision makes the game feel less like a Final Fantasy.

Like I said in our aim convo. Yes, all the FF games are unique. That's what makes them great. But they all have things to tie them together. That's what makes them Final Fantasy (along with their greatness). So when Squenix makes the decision to change one of those familiar ties, without any reason other than "they can", don't blame me for feeling as though the game isn't as much of a Final Fantasy title as it's predecessors.

Lantis · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 12:44 pm

Well as far as the summons go... maybe they wanted to try something diffrent.

And don't act like that haven't been doing that in the past, like Quezlcoatl for example. FF8 still felt like a final fantasy, right?

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 12:55 pm

We already had this discussion Lantis. 1 change is different from all of them being changed.

I don't mind new things. Hell I actually kinda got used to the whole, one or two new summons every game. And even changing one or two is kool. And hell, even losing one or two is fine. (poor Ramuh got wacked in 8).

But it's an entirely different thing to just go from woot all the familiar summons to......Wait....who are these guys. Where is everyone else.

It's kool if they want some new things. But they didn't have to wack all of the familiars. Omg. Where's Bahamut? Come on... That's just cruel. What's next. No chocobos? No uberly over powered final move that can be used my the main character to kill almost anything? (lol... just ahd to throw that in there.)

I mean this honestly. If they scrap one thing now then what's next? I don't have a problem with it really. The game is still great. But it detracts from the familiar FF feeling. That's all I'm saying. Just announcing future fears. I mean honestly. Would it still be an FF game if we had no summons? No chocobos or moogles? No Cid? Or would it just be another game? A great game mind you, epic in itself. But not a Final Fantasy. (that was saying that future ff games might not be ff games at all. I do consider ff12 to be a ff game. I'm just saying it feels like it's stepping away from the name.)

Lantis · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 1:02 pm

I understand where you are coming from... I really do. I just think it's a little over the top. There are some things in Final Fantasy that are not going to change... I'm pretty damn sure of that. But you've got to keep an open mind... if they want to name Ifrit, Belias... okay... fine. You still have your fire summons. I really don't think it's a big deal that it doesn't have the same name and the same attacks as the former.

Sorry, but I don't have any other espers in FF12 right now, so I really can't use another example ATM.

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 1:20 pm

Basically there are a few similar ones. Mateus is basically a male Shiva. And Hashmell is basically a titan.

But mind you these are not the same thing. Just because Belias is a fire summon does not mean he's the same as Ifrit. For me, things like the summons and Cid and chocobos have a special place. Ever FF game I play, whenever they come into play I get a little smile on my face and I feel a little bit of nostalgia. It saddens me to think that I might not have that in the future. They can give things different looks. Hell. The looks for Ifrit have changed over time; shiva as well. Granted they're not huge changes, but they are changes.

And it carries over to other games to. The first time I played WoW I saw the mounts for the gnomes. And I said. Woot!!! It's a freakin metal chocobo!! Kick Ass!!!

I immediatly associated it with Final Fantasy. It saddens me to think that something that has that power might not always exist. Even in the games it originated from.

Seriously. If I never see Ifrit or Bahamut in another Final Fantasy game it won't make those games be any less great. It will just make them be less Final Fantasy.

Lantis · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 1:29 pm

It would be as much Final Fantasy to you....

For me, nothings really moved me that bad. There is still plenty of original content to make me happy. I think the only way Squenix would really go over the top is if they made some damned football game and named it Final Fantasy.

Kajakfaucon · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 1:37 pm

Ummm. Ok.. So yea. If they ever did that I do a lot of things, most of which I probably can't mention in an online site (fbi might show up at my door and take me away.)

But seriously. That would be gay. Very...Very.... Very.... I just can't describe how much seething hatred I would have.

But anyways. Back to the topic. I don't think they'll ever run out of original content. Honestly I don't think that's a problem. I just wish they didn't needlessly sacrifice the memories. Seems kinda pointless to me. And it just makes me worry about what they'll do next.

Lantis · **Posted:** February 2nd, 2007, 1:48 pm

Well, I guess that's a diffrence me and you are as gamers.

I'm not so tied down to tradition... not to say that it's a good thing. But never the less. I remain unmoved by the changes in FF12.

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