Users dont get a Meh. Topics do.

This is really a light debate. But the subject of the light debate is more complicated than you think.

This topic is not a debate, and it never was. Think of it more as a socratic seminar, I'm not here to prove anyone wrong or prove myself right. I just want to know what other people think. Is sexism the same, not as bad as, or better than racism? Sure, I went about a weird way of doing so, but that's all I wanted to know. I still think the person needs to grow a pair, the odds will always be stacked against you, regardless of what sex,religion, or creed you are. Deal with your own problems, work to get above the inequalities you think you have going against you. I despise people who in this day and age complain about living in an unfair world. Stop complaining and deal with it, people don't realize just how powerful they can trully be if they just applied themselves. One human being can make a difference, be the change you wish to see in this world. We all have a chance to rise above if we tried, even the people who seem to have no rights in some third world countries can and are still to this day breaking the cycle of hatred. I think we as humans have progressed far too much to treat others badly based on a trait they were born or raised with that they have no control over themselves.

And another thing, I have nothing against you lantis, but I do not appreciate being called naive and I'd like for you to apologize. Honestly, nothing bad will happen if you don't, it's more for me than anything else. You don't have to, but I'd be thankful if you did.

Sexism and racism have the same general hate behind it. Very much close to it.

@Kajak...

tolerance

1. acceptance of different views: the acceptance of the differing views of other people, for example, in religious or political matters, and fairness toward the people who hold these different views
2. tolerating of something: the act of putting up with something or somebody irritating or otherwise unpleasant

iunno about Sumi, but i guess i was personally thinking of 1. the meaning of tolerance you were working from sounds much more like a disorganised blend of them both. tolerance does not necessitate patronage =P

At this point, i'm throwing my lot in with Bonanza. even if this is an interesting discussion

^_^

O rly?

This is exactly what the person you so think needs to 'grow a pair' is trying to do. Just because he has a diffrent opinion (one I share) than you doesn't make him any less of a person. In fact, he's probably got more of a pair because he's standing up as a minority.

But that's just what I think...

::edit::

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to hurt your feeling as bad as I have seem to. But once you've been shat one a few times, maybe you won't be so highly opinionated about all this... and that's why I said it. I doubt you've had the experiences that some of us have for us to think this way.

Doesn't wisdom come frome experience?

@Regal - Yes I was working more from the definition of number 2. My apologies if I came off strong. I dislike the word tolerance unless it refers to my drinking. To many times have I seen people "tolerate" others. And the more I see that, the more it disgusts me. If it's any help in the conversation I definetly go for the word accept.

@Altoecko - This might seem slightly odd. But I'm gonna say it anyways. You'd like Lantis to apologise for calling you naive. It that case I think an apology is in order to Lantis for frequently saying he needs to grow a pair. If you hadn't noticed Lantis feels much the same way as the author of the book you keep dissing. Hence the author needing to grow a pair = Lantis needing to grow a pair.

@ the topic - I suppose I'll go ahead and say this if I didn't make it as clear as I should have last time. As long as humanity thinks of this as a problem it will be a problem. That's not to say the old "If you don't acknowledge it it isn't real" idea will work. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that by approaching something as bad you automatically start the fight. Hence the comment of just live, as a good person, and everything works out in the end.

ah, np.

there's no need to apologise or anything, i'm too clueless to have a genuine point by any other cause than pure chance.

*sigh* its gonna be a GOOOOD day. =P

Take not that I wasn't even being serious when I said "women are evil." I don't see why people get frustrated with me when I present my take on a subject.

(insert witty quip about how all women get mad when men speak their opinions, here)

First, I want to say I writting this post because I want to help you. Our goal is not to advocate hating anything. It is to make you aware enough of the current situation to make an informed decision about women in your life.

Having the information we are privy to (Ix, Lantis, etc.) is like knowing the world is round when everyone else thinks it's flat....It's that pivital.

We have not arrived on the stances we take lightly. Ix and myself thus far have researched this information for the past two going on three years, and honest to God, we wish what we knew was not true. Sadly it is.

IMO, sexism is worse than racism. Let me illustrate why.

First Altoecko let me tell you this in all seriousness...the feminist hate you whether you support them or not.





Wikipedia
Andrea Dworkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin)
Linda Gordon (http://history.fas.nyu.edu/object/lindagordon)

An aside: Tell me if you believe the following: (if so, I'll address these later)

-1 in 4 women are raped

-Men commit most domestic violence

-Women earn 75 cents for every dollar a man makes

-Glass Ceilling



You may not realise it, but the bolded parts are called shammimg language and it is what feminist and there supports use to try to shut men up that have legitmate complaints.

Shamming Language: The use of phrases that question the manliness or masculinity of a man in order to shame him into acting against his common sense.

Also, If women had stoped "complaining and delt with it", would there have been a feminist movement in the first place?

If the underlined statement is true, then you must really despise feminists, they complain all the time and get stuff passed like Roe v. Wade, Violence Against Women Act (VAWA I), VAWA II(If feminist wanted eqaulity like they claim, these would be Violence Against People Acts (VAPA I and II)), and affirmative action.

Wikipedia Links
VAWA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAWA)



I believe this as well, unfortunatlly, the real world does not fuction this way. We must deal in reality not fantasy.

Please take the time to read this:



This isn't about black, white, yellow, brown, etc. Feminist hate all men. The deck is stacked against you. All we are trying to do is give you a strategy so that you can better play with the hand you're delt.

Some Double Standards to think about:

-Why is male rape funny, but female rape isn't?

-Why is it acceptable for a female to hit a male, but not vice versa?

-Why are males required to register for the selective service and females are not?

-Why are females that commit the same crimes as males given lighter sentences?

-Why are females allowed to terminate pregnacies without the males' consent?

-Why are there batttered womens' shelters, but no battered mens' shelters?

-Why isn't college entrance 50/50 based on gender? Currently it's 60/40 in women's favor and the gap continues to increase.

-Why are women required to do less physically for occupations like firefighter and soldier?

-Why is it when a female has sex with an underage male it's called sex, but when a male has sex with an underage female it's called rape, and why do females get slaps on the wrists for these crimes?

These are just a few of the injustices proported againt males in today's society.

If you take nothing else away from this, heed this: you are expendable:

-You can be drafted and killed in war.

-At worst be convicted of a sex crime based soly on the word of your female accuser (Sadly, I can provide many many examples), and at best have your professional and personal life ruined.

-Incase of divorce there is a 90% you will lose your childern. You will lose (in some states) 90% of you assests. You will pay Child Support not based on your actual income, but on what you could potentially earn. (Ex. There was a case in which a man's wife had died and he still had to pay Child Support payments over $1000/month while taking care of his three children.)

-Incase of a Domestic Violence dispute, you will not be believed. Officers are trained to believe the women only.

-You can be claimed the biological father of a child just because a women put your name on a birth citificate. She doesn't even have to know you, and you will have to spend thousands to get you name cleared.

If you have any questions about the following, I will address it in a follow up post.

why is it that just when it looks like a topic might not degenerate into a gender war, some Deus Ex Machina or other comes along to save the day?

that was certainly the most interesting 1st post i've ever seen around here ^^

and that ^^ ladies and gents is the culture.

in order to address the actual question which i sort of swung wide of in my original post i think? which is worse racism or sexism. Well i don't know. None of it, any -ism at all, really makes sense when you think about it. It's all just been bred into the culture of superiority.

to be honest i'm totally with Alt, be the change you wish to see. Ixzion refuses to participate in these kind of debates because hate bounces. That makes a lot of sense. tolerance, acceptance, whatever you want to call it. thats what i try to do.

Lantis, Knowledge comes from experience, but wisdom is what guides what you do with it. i think... I'm not any kind of guru on it, but i'm with Bon. being able to quote people and sound wise is one thing, but Alt is an all around good person with a clear grip on life. he recognizes his own humanity and imperfections, then seeks to improve. if wisdom means you can't be optimistic then who wants it?

*manages tea and ignorance in canada*
(NLY, if you're reading - you are still in charge of the american side of that one? =P)

@ka - i know you were joking. but i figured it would be a good thing to point out since it is something you seem to have previously missed.

I don't believe he's really new around here either. I hate feminist and misogynist. Its just easier to let them destroy each other.



That part is also not true, well depending on where you live. Last summer my grandfather was off of his meds which led to paranoia and schizophrenia, he called the police many of times during that week. One day he went into the house after my grandma stopped by the house to check on my brother. He went in locked the door to not let her in and called the police. They came there and asked what was the problem, he told them my grandma was trying to poison him. Well that being a lie the cop believed him anyway and almost took my grandma to jail without her giving a chance to explain herself. I woke up and opened the door to find out what was going on then explained the situation.

Its not 100% correct that all police officers are automatically going to believe the women in a domestic dispute.

I'm well aware of all of the things you posted, there are some new, and I didn't read the website in depth, and I still haven't, I have a huge test tommorrow than I've been studying for, so I apologize for that. Males are not the minorty, especially not White Males, so you're not the minority in that aspect Lantis. I understand what you mean, I agree with Ix and all of you about the unfairness that we have. I even stated, there will always be racism, sexism, and all other isms as long as there is affirmative action. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think it's the majority of women in America that are so "evil" as you put it. I'm not denying they're there, I've lived in 13 different states and 36 different houses ranging from big cities to little small bumfuck towns. I'm still only 18, and I have seen a lot of females and I study the culture of every place I go to. I believe that males mature emotionally faster than females, not mentally, not phsyically, just emotionally. Females have nearly twice the brain size(I'm going from memory on this, I'll look up the real number in a bit) dedicated to their emotions than that of men. I despise feminists and misynogists(Spelling?) they're both groups who need to and I quote myself "grow a pair" and stop complaining. You have the same chances as anyone else as long as you set your mind to it. The balance of power has slipped out of control of the white man, that is perfectly fine by me, it is now (loosely) distributed amongst all the minorities, who are slowly becoming the majority in numbers(Only when you combine the minorities) I don't know much about Lantis or his character, so I can't insult him, and I can't insult the guy of the book, it's not my place. I think he(The author) needs to ( I won't shame) stop complaining about these inequalities as if they're keeping him from living a productive life. As far as I can tell(ONCE AGAIN I have not read the book) they're not hampering his life. I wanted Lantis to apologize because he doesn't know anything of my character and he called me naive, I may be a lot of negative things in life, but I am not naive. I'm going to adress each one of the iquestions you mentioned here.




It's not rape, it's surprise sex! On a serious note, it's neither is funny, but male rape rarely happen. It's made fun of though because that's how us men work, when the manhood of another is in question, we like to make fun of the man. This has carried over to rape.


I don't know where you got this information but it's domestic abuse if a women hits a man too. Neither is acceptable, and neither should be acceptable. I view this as more of a chivalry issue, chivalry is slowly dying because we as a race are killing it. I have no respect for a man that wishes to hit a woman. None. It's how I was raised, and I know of the other side, and I have seen it, and this is one issue I am 100% firm on. No man should ever hit a woman. No woman should hit a man either, but it happens. Women don't have as much control over their emotions as men do, this has been scientifically proven. Sometimes they can't help the outbursts, that still doesn't make it right, but it's up to you to keep this in consideration.



The army is a sexist organization that needs some reforms. You should start a petition to change that law. I say abolish the mandatory selective service registration, but hey, do what you want.



Proof please. I mean, REAL proof. This seems to be the same kind of propaganda a feminist would use against males. Frankly I don't believe it.



It's their body, it's their choice. You'd have the same choice if you carried the baby.



The men that would need to go to a battered mens' shelter would be ostracized by their fellow man. Don't blame females for this one, it's man's own pride that caused this one.



Perhaps maybe females are smarter? Perhaps maybe the colleges are out to get you? Maybe, just maybe, the feminists have scared the colleges into thinking they'll be shutdown for being sexist if they make it 50/50. Much the same as affirmative action is making the black acceptance rate higher than the white rate. I don't like racist, on either sides. College application should be based on your merits. Want a school of all blacks? Fine, start your own college, I can't stop you. Public college's should be equal acceptance.



By law they're both called rape. Once again, I'll need proof for the second statement.

I've always been expendable, and I'm fine with that. I'll make the world a better place while I'm here. I am an Romanticist in my mannerism, a Realist in my outlook, and an Idealist in my plans. I think that's the most effective way to view the world, see it how it is, treat it how it should be treated, but build towards how it should be. Life sucks and then you die. I've heard that quote a lot. My life doesn't suck, because I make the most of every day. I suggest you stop assuming people are out to get you, and realize, yes, they are, now move on with your life. Acknowledging them only gives them more power. Start an anti-feminist movement, not an anti-female movement. That is the problem I see in your ideals, and I apologize that we are at a disagreement here.


EDIT- I couldn't fully understand your English Lantis, but I have been shat on by women before if that's what you're talking about. I've met the "evil" women you're talking about, but I'm telling you, through all of my years of living, that breed of woman has never been the majority. Atleast nowhere I've been, and I've been a lot of places.

Ummm. Well. Though I can't say I go with all of it (and it's perfectly fine to have different points of view) All I can basically do after that is, well, *clap*

In judge judy's court if a woman hits a man well the same punishment goes.

^^^ also culture. thus ground for optimism.

[quote=AltoEcko]It's not rape, it's surprise sex![/quote]

and wow. havn't heard that one in QUITE a while. ^__^ you brighten my day.

Naivete is a way of life, you're born that way and you die only tarnished by cynicism. I'd argue that an 'excessively simplified worldview' is really the only thing any of us can reasonably claim to possess.

*shrug* Look at Socrates, the man knew his own value. We are all ignorant of so much that to deny our own naivete is a beautiful irony in itself.

Naivete in itself is not a particularly bad thing, though. You're waving the word around like it is. Don't be beating Lantis over the head with this, huh? While your point of view is both interesting and probably rather efficient, it doesn't work for me that while you argue you should rise above life's injustices... you keep coming back to this apology.

it doesn't work if it's a pound of flesh. an apology extracted forcefully is no apology at all. Also, i have yet to see what possible need you could really have for one. If he's wrong in calling you naive as if it was unique to you, which he was... well, its already quite clear enough without embarrassing the guy.

...or something.

It's fine...

I talked out of turn. And I'd prefer not to be on anyone's sh*t list because I don't like to be not liked... if that makes sense.

So in all fairness... I'm sorry.

*holds out hand*

And I apologize for insulting your views inadvertantly, honestly I do. Being called naive to me means I was just called blind, deaf, and dumb to the world around me. Which I don't think I am. I kept coming back to the apology because there's no need for name calling in a topic such as this. I'm stupid, and I will never know everything, but I'll try and learn as much has I can and help as many people as I can. Injustices in life are one thing, an attack on one's character for no reason is another, even if it's over the internet, I respect Lantis, so his opinion mattered to me.


EDIT - I just read through the 24 things about why us men have the odds against us. I don't really trust statistics anymore, I trust scientific studies and hard data. I'd gladly crunch the numbers on all that information I read, and I assume the majority of them are true. I'm also sure there's an equally as large list of statistics that feminists use to prove their points. I've taken college level Discrete and Statistical math classes, and I know how easy it is to lie with math. So, sorry I don't trust some of your numbers, would you mind finding me a link to the studies and/or surveys that this data came from? If you don't I'll go looking through the sites you posted tommorrow night, no time tonight.