Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden


For you see, the rich and the powerful (Or the white as you may) must help the poor and weak(or black if you will). What makes us white guys better? Why everything ofcourse! The same goes for if I think women are better than men, or vice versa. I don't need proof as long as I believe it. Despite what everyone else says, I'm still right and that is all that matters.

Obviously, I don't believe any of this. I could easyily find facts to back it up and probably tell you about tons of personal experience that backs it up too. I haven't seen everything though, so I can't assume I'm right. Only when I have seen all the sides I can possibley see will I claim to be right. I think that sexism is no different than racism, but not all forms of sexism are bad. Here. That's what I'm talking about, read that if you'd like. Most all of this will go back to a moral debate more than anything. Who decides what's right and wrong though? To be honest, whoever is in the majority, or religion. Religion is the only time where I will allow blind faith(Not looking at all sides before deciding). I've seen enough sides to know that all people are equal to me in some form or fashion. Despite race, creed, or religion. Think I'm wrong, please, prove me wrong. I'm currently reading this website: Nice Guy telling me why women aren't equal to men. It's got some good points, but I still think it's wrong, and I don't think the author has seen all sides. Now, I want to hear all sides. Tell me what you think, Ixzion has stopped talking to me on the subject, so I want to get the publics opinion. Do you think you, or someone else, is better based on their color, creed, or sex? If so, why? I'm going to need facts on this one. Remember, just because you think a circle is a square and everyone disgrees with you, it doesn't make it a circle. You can call it a circle, but popular opinion(The one that matters) says it's a sqaure. The victor writes the history books, think about that.

*cracks fists and neck*

Well well. Here we go another debate? If so than i must sit down and think about this certain topic.

*Sits down*

*ahem*

All right. There is no way in hell, that someone is better than you cuase of your color,sex, or creed. Why? I don't know! I just can't put it into words and explain.

Women are evil.

Yes yes, we all know.

First, we state that women require time and money:

Women = time * money

...and as we all know, "time is money":

Time = Money

...and therefore:

Women = Money * Money = (Money)^2

...and because "Money is the root of all evil":

Money = sqrt(evil)

...therefore:

Women = (sqrt[evil])^2

...and we are forced to conclude that:

Women = Evil

What Ixzion is complaining abou from what I can tell is the way that our society tells us as humans to wait untill we're emotionally mature before we delve into deep lasting relationships. He doesn't like the fact that girls go out and party and have sex when they're younger, and then go looking for a nice guy when they're older. He wants them to look for him now. He's also claimed that he can woo any woman off their feet that he wants, and that he knows exactly how women think. Go look for a good Christian girl Ixzion, that's what you seem to want. She'll be a virgin waiting for you on your honeymoon night. I don't want a deep emotional relationship when I'm too young to know what it is, maybe you're old enough to fully appreciate it now, good for you. Maybe the girls you like aren't. I digress from the original topic, discriminating against someone for their gender is the same as discriminating someone because of their race. Gender is defined by certain characteristics and societal traits that go along with it, much the same as race.

@KA - but take note, if you will, of the way Alt presents this as a topic of discussion instead of an angry rant.

The whole argument reminds me of an article I read recently in a magazine written by someone who grew up with no fashion sense but then found his role models when he was in Italy and grew very fond of shoes. And he said that once he was at a party and had a long talk with a woman about shoes and after it she said something along the lines of meaning she was going to go off and look for a manly man and basically she thought he was gay, which apparantly many people do simply because he has a strong fashion sense.

What bothers me about the race thing, is that it doesn't make sense. Attributions based on something you can't help being? And it bothers me most in current society where colour and culture is mixed. Logically culture is what guides how people act, and yet two people raised the same way would be stereotyped differently based on something they have no control over? LOL. It made sense back when people of the same race all lived in the same place and shared the same culture. But even then, there were many assertions that weren't true. IE. The white man's burden. That's just an overly active superiority complex.

Admittedly, stereotypes (gender, race, sexuality, religion, whatever) are a part of the culture and make themselves true because a lot of people believe in them and force them into existance. But it irks me that so often people have to... prove themselves or something... for others to believe unstereotypical things about them.

And that's basically my opinion, as well worded as I can get it. Maybe a little off what you were looking for? ^^;
I try not to stereotype people, or speak ill in generalities. But I'm not doing the greatest job in the world at it, or even close. It's easy to forget, when more often than not, one finds generalities to be true. But I figure if I go out every day not expecting to find these things true, not expecting anything even... that'll be good.

... IMHO, people use discrimination as a guidebook to life, and it seems to work for them. when you first meet a new person, what do you think?

*shrug* i'd be inclined to think nothing at all until they actually made me think something. but thats where prejudices come in for the better prepared amongst... them.

a fair few other things work in the same way. Faith? Science?

are you gonna say that they aren't all guidelines?

^^

i'm totally just hypothesising, at any rate.

People use discrimination to make one feel better about themselves or for their own f*cked up logic. Race, sex, looks, social status, etc. Blaming someone and others for their mistakes.

When I first meet someone I think nothing of different of them, they're a blank slate, I will size them up from the clothes they are wearing and the way they do their hair but I will not come to a final or even remotely halfway descision about their personality untill I get to know them. I'd like to know what you all thought, is discriminating against someone for their gender the same, worse, or not as bad as discriminating against them for their race? I'll read that book you posted tonight Lantis. One thing I'll have to say in response to what brief parts I read about it on the website, the person who wrote it needs to grow a pair. The world isn't fair, and it never will be, it's up to you to succeed despite the world going against you, so stop complaining. Another idea to throw into the pot, I believe there will be racism, sexism, and whatever else -ism, as long as there is affirmative action.

Alto, while your wisdom is beyond your years, I think it would be wiser simply to step down from this madness. Kindly lay off my cousin, and go on with your life.

Wise?

I'm sorry, but there is a fine line between having wisdom and being naive.

"Oh, lets not start THAT again!"

[/ref]

XD

*Sigh*

...

Yes, sir...

*wanders off*

it wasn't any kind of order. just a quote... >_<

apologies

^^;

lol, I wan't offended...

I was complying for comedic purposes... which seem to have failed.

Oh well...

*Mans up to Whale Cancer*

But back on topic... IMHO, we aren't ever going to achieve equality. Because everytime people (be it race, gender, or whatever) gets close... there will be someone who wants more, finds something wrong, or just wants to be an ass that will pull everything right back to where it was.

It's like stacking nickles on their sides... it just doesn't work to well...

@Regal - ecks dee ^.^

@lantis - lol, we don't need equality, we arn't equal. need tolerance.

^ agreed.

and yeah... XD

@Sumisem - But that thought in and of itself is a problem. Tolerance? Of What. What do we need to be tolerant of? Do I need to tolerate a black man? No. Becuase if I tolerate him that means I automatically place myself higher then him. And if you place yourself higher than something then you're gonna look down on it. No way around that no matter how tolerant you are.

@Lantis - You're right. We will never achieve equality. But not for the reasons you're thinking. Not because someone will pull it apart right when it gets close. But because the very idea of achieving equality is flawed. By reaching for equality we say there is something wrong. If I were to say right now that I was not equal to you I would be admitting one of two things. Either you have it better, or I have it better. No-one has it better. It's not a competition, at least not against each other. We're the Human RACE for a reason. Because we are all clearly defined as one body. By going along with inequality we automaticaly hobble ourselves.

@Alt - No he doesn't need to grow a pair. And if it was a she she wouldn't need to grow a pair either. It wasn't a complaint. It was an admittance that there is a problem. Was it necesarrily correct? Maybe not. However, infer from what you know. All the stats in that book were correct. The cultural tendecies are true. There's no denying those two things.

@at the topic in general - For some reason humanity is on, and to my knowledge has always been on, a win streak. Everyone just wants to win. And with that mentality comes the cometition. To win someone else has to lose. To tolerate there has to be someone that needs to be tolerated. To be equal inequality has to exist. No sexism is no better or worse than racism. They're both problems. That's kinda a no duh situation. But the thing is that as long as you look at it, hold it, touch it, realise it as a problem, it will never find a solution. Just live your life. No better, no worse. Bad things will happen, good things will happen. That's life. If everyone for a day loved every other single human being on the face of the planet, the very next day would be just like any other day. That's part of what makes us human. We're inately flawed.

This topic isn't right.

*Cracks neck*

*sits down on comfy chair*

For one thing, discussing topics like this could mean trouble. Sometimes its best not to ask questions for a topic like this. Each person in the world thinks diffrently and has diffrent or similar views on this subject than other people. So posting opinions will never find the true answer.

so.

Cluck it.

This topic deserves the "Meh" of the week.


Congratulations.

And you get a 'Meh' for being close minded.

Nothing wrong with debate... actually this is one of the first debate threads that hasn't gone flame-ish yet.