All across the internet and around school, there's always the constant bickering about Christians, Muslims, Atheists and so on. I once was atheist but crossed the line into Christianity on my own a few years ago. Being on both sides, it's hard for me to dislike one side or the other. But the biggest problem I come across is the intolerance of others and the disrespect we show one another's beliefs. To be a Christian is considered stupid. Why believe in something that can't be proven to exist? How can the world not believe in such a being? One can argue on and on and on about what's "fact" and what isn't. However, the truest statement of it all is that it is all based on FAITH.

As many people have opinions, people have faith in something, be it a God or some creature or maybe even nothing at all. What's wrong with believing in God? What's wrong with not? Personally, I have no problems with people having beliefs that are different from my own. The only time it becomes a problem is when people take those beliefs and try to impose them on someone else or hurt someone in the name of their "faith." Religion is not something you force on others, though I knew a few people at Baylor who tried it on me, and it just pushed me away even more. Trying to convince someone that God isn't real is just as bad. We must all believe in what we choose to believe because we got to that point, not because someone else drug us across the line. I see many posts on the internet insulting Christians for believing in God and saying the Bible is a book of pure fiction, and that people who believe it are stupid. Perhaps it is a book of fiction, but perhaps it is a book of facts. How are we to know? We weren't alive way back then. We didn't experience such things. That's why it is called faith. To believe that these things are real and are a matter of truth.

I will support any Christian that will stand up for their beliefs, so long as they truly follow them. If you go running at the mouth trying to sound all holier than thou, but then turn around and do all the things you say you shouldn't, then I can't take you seriously. I'm a pretty silent follower of God because I know I'm not even close to being the perfect example. However, I also keep quiet because it's a more personal thing for me. If people want to know what I believe and think, you can ask, and I may tell. And I personally feel that if you don't believe in God or are unsure, then I'm fine with that, but I hope that maybe one day you can find your way to religion. But if you never do, that's your own choice. I won't stop liking people just because they don't follow the same path I do.

Anyway, just my rambling thoughts about that. I'm kinda interested in what everyone else thinks about it.

I'm personally unsure if I believe in God, for many of the reasons you've stated.

On the negative side, you can't prove that God exists. It's all faith, and I have a hard time believing in something when I have not even a shred of evidence. On the other hand, when I'm down in life I'll eventually learn a new life lesson or get out of my slump and suddenly everything gets better. And this sort of occurrence has happened more than once, and just at the right time. Conicidence? Maybe, maybe not.

I hate when people ask me if I believe in God, since I have no answer for it. I simply don't know.

I'm glad you'd be willing to accept that fact SF, but sadly most people don't feel that way. People always act like since I have no religion, that I'm worse off for it, or they look down on me. It's unfair. Like I'm missing out on something. I'd say, probably not. Unless I can go into a religion with my heart fully into it, then I'm probably better off not doing it halfheartedly.

I guess I'm always someone who looks at things from multiple viewpoints, so I can't fully believe this sort of thing.

There's my rant. Sorry if that wasn't the response you were looking for.

I wonder how long before this topic gets locked.

I guess I'll just breifly go over some things I believe. No doubt there is lots more I could say, but I'm not going to bother writing a whole explanation of my beliefs.

Anyway - I'm atheist. Always have been. I never believed in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny either.

I think that people are generally arrogant and intolerant, regardless of what they believe in.

My family didn't ever talk to me about "god" or religion. I didn't even realize there was such a belief. All I can remember when I first heard about it was thinking "An invisible , benevolent being that grants eternal bliss if you follow his rules and condemns you to burn for eternity if you don't (or are born "different").... right... I'm going to live my life by these weird, arbitrary, antiqued rules because there were some people that lived 2000 years ago, and some people around me today who think that it's the right thing to do". It was the silliest thing I'd ever heard of.

And when I got older, and began exploring history and whatnot, I learned that there were many gods, many beliefs. And I thought that anyone who could possibly believe in any one god (or any number of them) out the the literally tens of thousands of others must be remarkably arrogant to presume that in all the infinite possibilities of the universe that they had the one correct answer and everyone else was wrong (especially given it was based on faith, rather than fact).

Further, I think that believing in the christian bible (or any one holy book) is just as silly and arrogant. What makes that one book more worthy of belief than the countless others? There are things in the christian bible that came from much earlier pagan works (and ancient Egyptian writings, in some cases, were taken nearly verbatim and put into the bible - look at the Maxims of Ptahhotep and then the Book of Proverbs). Why are the Qur'an, the Book of Coming Forth by Day, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Gates, Śruti, Tanakh, the Dreden Codex, or the hundreds of other holy books in existence irrelevant? Why are they wrong and the christian bible the only truly right choice to place one's faith in? And when you consider that some of these various books were written in close proximity to one another, using texts taken from other holy books, and influenced by earlier works, why should any one book be considered any more true than all others?

Further, Christianity wouldn't be as prominent today if historically Christians didn't spread the faith so violently (would the bulk of Mexico be Christian today if the Spanish Conquistadors didn't rape, murder, and burn the indigenous peoples? If they didn't burn all but 4 of their holy books? If they didn't systematically eradicate the native written language and attempt to destroy their culture? All in the name of the Christian god and the search for gold). How about believing in a faith that was perpetuated by people peacefully? Who didn't need to violate the tenants of their own religion for it to prosper?

I don't have a problem with people who have faith - as long as they are happy, and don't try to use their faith to put others down, or hurt people. But I can't say I have much respect for anyone who ascribes to a specific religion without understanding the history of that religion, who doesn't know anything about other religions and their history, who accepts the faith that they were raised in blindly. Yeah, I know, faith is blind. But faith shouldn't be contingent on ignorance. If basic historical facts are going to shatter your faith, then it must not have been terribly strong to begin with.

Actually, that's what I have the problem with. It's not religion. It's ignorance. And yes, there are plenty of ignorant atheists, so that isn't just directed at people with a religion.

But there's no reason for anyone to insult others, demean them, or look down on them. We're all human and equally fallible. We all just do what it takes to get through life, and we each have our own ways of coping.

For the record, while I don't believe in any god and think the very idea is ludicrous, that doesn't mean that I think there isn't some wisdom to be found in various religions. I may not believe in everything that's said in various holy books, but at least some parts were written by intelligent people who had wise things to say. And just because these texts may have been written thousands of years ago doesn't mean that they are entirely irrelevant today, either.

Also - anyone who believes or says that the bible is complete fiction is just saying so to be a dick. There are historical truths there, no doubt, even if it isn't 100% exactly correct. The same goes for pretty much every other holy book.

In a nut-shell:

I don't believe much anything. I consider a lot, though.

I think that makes you agnostic.

I didn't read all of Thutmose's post, but skimming I agree with the main message. The problem with religion, and most people who are fervent about it, is that they think everyone else is wrong and their way is the only way. Personally I find that very close-minded, and quite ignorant. As Karl Marx said, religion is the opiate of the masses.

That being said, I don't have a problem with most belief systems, but organized religion does more harm than good I think.

Christians get ragged on a lot because a lot of them do go around doing the fire and brimstone thing. They either tell you you're going to a lake of eternal fire for not believing, or pray that you'll come to the right decision, or bring God and Jesus into every single part of their life. I don't want anybody praying or worrying for me because I don't completely buy in to one particular world view.

I get faith and all, we all have it to some extent (even if it's the faith that there is nothing), but I get tired of people who try to force it on others (in obvious ways or through guilt tripping). To think that your one system of belief that was started by one book written millenea ago and translated thousands of times and is all about a malevolent God who only does good things for you when you bow and worship him and submit yourself wholly to him, is infallible and the only correct answer, seem silly at best, and retarded at worst. And who is the religion who tends to do this the most in the US (especially the South) ... Christians. This is why most people don't like them. They're like the know it all.

So if you're Christian, cool, that's great, just don't try to make me one. I was for a long time, and then did a lot of inquiry into it and realized most of it does not make sense, and I don't want to subscribe to a faith that seems to have arbitrary rules for how get the privilege to live a life of eternal servitude [paradise], or else be cast into the fiery pits of hell forever.

Long story short, f*ck organized religion, it can die in a fire. Faith and beliefs however are cool. If you want an interesting look on Genesis and why it doesn't make a lot of sense (and also why we are destroying our planet) read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn.

Yes I was being purposefully over the top and know there is more to Christianity than what I have written. Like I said if you want to talk about what you believe, cool, but once you start hinting it has to be the only correct answer, or my answer is somehow inferior because the bible tells you so, f*ck you.

Organized religion is a disease in a way. Many people walk into the church and have no thoughts of their own. When the pastor or preacher speaks, they eat his words up and make those beliefs their own. If anyone tells you, "Well, my pastor said..." cut them off and ask them if they have a thought of their own. They more than likely do not. There was a church I went to my first year at Baylor University and it was the worst place for most people to go. It's a cult. A house of brainwashing. I've seen people go in there, normal believers of God who the ability to accept things outside of their box. When they came out, they've been turned into a cold hard warrior of the church that believed that there is one truth. Here is one of those types:



This conversation left a bad taste in my mouth. He was a likable guy until that church changed him. That church was nuts and guilt tripped you to tears. After a couple of months there, I bolted and was afraid of Christianity for a while. I came back to it later, but on my own terms. Some churches aren't bad, but there are those that are so messed up that they'll brainwash you and turn you into one of their minions.

The beliefs should come from your own understanding. Yes, it can be "distorted," but that's how human life is. I don't believe in distortion of religion so long as it's not meant to harm anyone. But most churches... it's bad.

Sound like exactly how a conversation like that would go with my mom or brother, which is why I don't usually have conversations like that. If I were to actually come out and say I wasn't Christian they would think they failed as a person and then constantly pray for me because I've strayed from the glory of God or whatever. It's frustrating to deal with people like that, especially when you live with them.

I have a point. it is a very good point. But every time I accidentaly hit shift to capitalize a letter I left lowercase by accident and then hit backspace, my PS3 browser reads that as "delete EVERYTHING." There is no Undo command.

I was attempting to ruminate on why religion is infact a lie, why parts of it are still realavant, while others are and should be discarded, some philosophical ideas and thinkers who explore these ideas, and finaly why I choose to become/remain an agnostic who still thinks that the condensed version of most religion is best.

you may draw your own conclusions on that one.

Well, ShadowFox, I cannot help but feel compelled to acknowledge that you have spoken some true wisdom on this subject. In particular, the above thought I quoted from you is something I admit that I was always too afraid to voice around anyone - in any environment - at all aside from the inside of a church where I knew I would be safe to do so, because my friends there all felt the same way, too. But I think the above thought is one of the most important things to know about being a follower of Christianity; there are either too many self-righteous fanatics going about condemning everyone else to Hell but themselves (ex. Westboro Baptist Church/Cult), or every atheist is just looking for the first mistake you make to be able to point their finger and call you a worthless hypocrite simply because they are so offended at the slightest, most innocent mention of the Christian faith that you make. But, what you said up above seems like the perfect medium to either extreme, therefore it has been how I try to live my life ever since I became a follower seven or eight years ago.

I know that I normally avoid subjects like this on the forums, but still, I was especially obligated to echo your thoughts there in particular.

To me there are significant differences between belief, faith, spirituality, ritual, practice, organization, philosophy, politics, and community and yet many people seem to equate "religion" at one time with one of these things and another time with a different one leading to significant frustration and misunderstanding. A lot of people do not have the interest, patience, security or temperament to initially handle significant and meaningful religious discussion, argument, or debate. A lot of times people of one belief system become frustrated with people of other belief systems and eventually use this as a basis to stop respecting the belief system to the point that they feel justified to not need to try to understand where others are coming from and just write them off as being (insert negative word here).

However, I believe a lot of people do not have the capability to properly put themselves in a different modal mindset to fully embrace the perspective of other people's beliefs. I have encountered many athiests or secularists who I feel cannot understand what it means to have faith from a first person mental view point. Some can only understand it theoretically in third person so no matter how much respect they try to pay one's belief, anything that seems illogical, irrational, or absurd is considered unbelievable. Unfortunately many of these athiests rather than simply conclude the unbelievablity and tolerate the beliefs of others will begin to psychologically remember their imposed Christian upbringing, bitterly resent it, let the concluded unbelievability amplify the original resentment, and then deflect this resentment toward the presently faithful via ridicule. Then you will have Christians who cannot appreciate what it means to have an unbelievable belief like this imposed on them to the point that one becomes bitter, so many of said Christians cannot understand why they are being ridiculed by the athiests. These Christians may begin to themselves resent the athiests for ridiculing their beliefs. These Christians like the athiests will tend to only see it from their point of view without the attempt and maybe even the ability to respect what the other has been through mentally and spiritually.

The art of the argument of religion lies in the ability to be able to properly embrace in first person a plurality of modal realms.

It is important to me to consider why people believe and act as they do before concluding a judgement. For example many Christians do not like when other Christians prostelytize. Well it is possible that an individual who prostelytizes has psychological training to prostelytize. Or it may be the case that they have actual justification from within the religious teaching itself to prostelytize. So it might annoy a given silent christian when others are out there being preachy, but this annoyance while actual may not properly address that maybe the other Christian truly believes the are supposed to be preachy as from their point of view they may be acting in accordance with God's direction. In this case it behoves the silent Christian to attempt to understand what more specifically they are bothered by, the other Christian's particular upbringing, the other Christian's specific justification, or simply the fact that people by nature do not always agree as to how to handle themselves socially. There is often a lot or misplaced blame because many people either don't want to believe or can't believe that some others may have some form of reasonable justification for both their beliefs and their actions even if the blamer cannot themselves see it.

I for example would annoy many people on the street if I came up to them and attempted to argue with them about religion. It turns out though that I would be acting consistent with the Golden Rule in a way many people would not want to see or could not see. I would do that because what I absolutely DO want is for people off the street to come up to me and challenge my religious beliefs. It is my favorite argument. So if I follow the Golden Rule I can reasonably conclude that this is what I should do to them. My point is that the most important thing regarding the subject of religious beliefs of others is that they be engaged via fair, honest, patient, and comprehensive argumentation. The religious beliefs of another cannot be fully appreciated in a mere glance.

As for my beliefs, my beliefs, and these are only my beliefs, are ALL beliefs because I entertain the proper designation of all modal realms universally. That of course is in theory. In actuality, I believe that all roads lead to agnosticism.

It took the internet for me to meet a legion of atheists and agnostics. I am always amazed at how many people I see on the internet who proclaim themselves to be non-religious, but only because of how nearly-non-existent it is in my daily life. Black people, on the whole, are quite religious. I am no exception.

However, because I am not Him, I don't dare act as if I am...to do so would be presumptuous and arrogant beyond reproach. There's way too many "Christians" who think it's their mission to convert the world to the Bible. And there's a lot of non-religious people who openly mock Christians for their beliefs who are just as bad as those religious zealots.

I used to be Christian a few years back. That's how I was raised. But I got to the point where I was tired of praying to got and never getting an answer, so I just stopped. I still wonder about the possiblity of the existance of a god, or the afterlife, and such, but otherwise I don't practice any religion. I'm not really any worse off for it.

If anybody ever pulls the "you'll go to Hell if you don't believe" schtick on me, here's my response: Satan believes in God's existance. Didn't do him any good, did it? And/or I'll use the idea that if God is so forgiving and wants to save me, let him. If he'll throw me in hell just because I don't believe, then he is a lot more hateful than people think. Also, Syn, your friend scares me.

This topic kinda gives me an interesting idea. A story where a madman wants to destroy the world, because he doesn't believe in an afterlife and wants to stop all life from continuing to come along only to cease a pointless existance a short period later.