... At least I think so.

I haven't been looking into how the general public feels about this particular installment. But, I felt the urge to ask after seeing a Spoony review in which he mentioned that, at least to him, most lifelong Final Fantasy fans seemed to think that slight deviations from the series like VIII and X ( I call them deviations because of the awkward junction and sphere grid systems) are great, and apparently sent hatemail to the Spoony One saying so, Final Fantasy XII is the enigma here, and therefore it must be the beginning of the end now, since the thirteenth installment is sure to bring a lot of new ideas to the table also, and it's just a frightening prospect to us fanboys sometimes.

But to me, I think that Final Fantasy XII is actually one of the best out there. It is in my top five list of Final Fantasy titles. The only un-Final-Fantasy thing I've noticed in the game so far was the fact that it named the empire's airships after the classic summon creatures rather than, you know, the actual summon creatures themselves. But, whatever. 'Hardly a problem. The point is, I felt that I was in fact playing a Final Fantasy game. It was a great adventure, ... with moogles involved. That's enough for me. They even threw in the classic story of a small band of rebels fighting together against the tyrannical empire, and, unlike Xenogears (holy cow), did not extend any further than that just halfway through the story. Sometimes I like it to stay simple. And the music was brilliant; just what I would always expect out of a Final Fantasy title. It's amazing how well the revamped battle system into active (perhaps semi-active is more accurate; we still had the bars that fill up and everything) time worked, too. It made the game - dare I say - more fun to play than any other Final Fantasy title to date. I know we've all been used to turn-based battle in the Final Fantasy franchise until 2006 (at least to my knowledge), but it wasn't as though the idea to have characters actually fight onscreen and be able to walk around in the midst of battle wasn't an obviously stupid one like the laws system in FFTA or the one-on-one fighting in Thousand Arms. Sure, some people probably did not like it, but you can't argue the creators trying to make fighting in a Final Fantasy more fast-paced and convenient (from the use of gambits). Speaking of which, gambits were awesome and a surprisingly efficient system.

.... And Penelo is cute.

I AM A PENELO ENTHUSIAST!





'Bottom line is, I personally am looking as much forward to Final Fantasy XIII as I ever had any other Final Fantasy title I had ever waited on (I can't include I - VI in that because I did not get into RPG's period until late 1995). Considering that I have found every Final Fantasy I have ever played in the numeric series to be at least an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 (meaning it was at least "very good"), I expect that the chances FFXIII turn out to be inferior are very low.

The other point of this thread, discussion-wise, is to ask you all what you thought of Final Fantasy XII. Didn't you think it was every bit as good as the previous titles?





On a side note, this is my top five list of Final Fantasy games:

5. XII
4. Tactics
3. VI
2. VII
1. IX

My top five:

5. VI
4. VII
3. IX
2. V
1. IV

(Tactics would be number one, if I counted it as part of the numeric series)

And btw, I share the exact same opinion as you, good sir. And I believe that we are the minority.

Though, you are not Penelo enthusiast... you are a cigarette. Penelo is up there as one of the most uneccessary and pointless characters in all of FF. Seriously, she has no reason to be there other than just being another party memeber. She adds nothing to the story and her character is horribly developed. She's about as interesting as Gau from IV... and you coddle her just because of her looks.

I liked Final Fantasy 12. But to me, it's not a Final Fantasy because it deviates from the series' roots, too much. No world maps, for one. Had the same issue with FFX. Though FF12 did a little better in this regard because the paths between locations weren't nearly as straightforward (which I heard will be the case again in FF13).

And also, the battle system. Battles in Final Fantasy shouldn't take place in semi-realtime. Touching an enemy should result in the screen being smeared in spectacular fashion, at which point you're warped to a small field with you on one side and the enemy group on the other, as you all take turns running across the field and smacking each other silly. ...With the ability to easily control all party members, with no requirement that the others be AI-controlled. Back to FF13, from what I've seen, it's going back to separate battle arenas, but keeping AI party members for some strange reason.

At least FF12 has TOWNS.

Oh my god WHAT A STARTLING REVELATION!

As long as you admit it.

I would LOVE to see you design a 3D 360 degree combat environment where you and all opponents on the screen can move freely, while preserving your ability to maneuver all party members (at the same time as each other) to run to/away from things depending on situation... in real time.

It's a matter of necessity. People need to stop whining about this game before having played it. A lot of the complaints I've seen are misinformed or based entirely on assumption. There IS a reason this game was so well received in Japan, so, us judgemental Western folk should give it a chance before slamming it.

(Before anybody jumps on that opportunity I left, my criticism of FF12's AI as heard before is due to the lack of limitations set on it, while this is fixed in 13)

I do think the main issue, though, is the fact that everybody's split between those who are purists and those who can accept change. Personally, I would hate to see a wave of old-school video games getting released because there is absolutely no reason for it other than to please those who can't let go of all their sentimentalities, which is less of the market than those who can and those who have none. The old was great, but, things don't work the way they used to anymore - that is to say, I can understand the love of old games, but being incapable of accepting the new is just.. I dunno. I can't get a grip of it.

In other news, 9 is my favorite. I enjoyed 7 at it's time, but can't bring myself to enjoy it anymore, so it wouldn't even make my list.

Kingdom Hearts accomplished it, and Tales of the Abyss, Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, and Tales of Vesperia accomplish the task of running around in a 3D battle environment. You can control up to 4 characters, and you have a good deal of monsters on the screen at times. So... I don't see where the problem is.

You can control all of those party members to move in different directions all at the same time while using a joystick, not by command or by clicking on a certain place on the field to make them autorun there, and not only when their turn is up?

I don't think that's quite right.

I'm talking about full and complete control over every single movement of all the characters at the exact same time, here. That's the kind of control you have over your character in 13, and the reason they couldn't give you that same control over everyone else as well.

It does work. It's hard to find youtube videos (since I've never had other people play), but you can control up to four characters with other people or you can just let the AI run about and do their thing on their own. But by yourself, no. If that's what you meant, then no game accomplishes that, but never will.

That's the entire point I was making. The AI is necessary to fill in what no person can do on their own. Thank you.

I found this relivant. It's someone playing the hardest arena fight in Star Ocean 4 with AI completely turned off. They flip back and forth between party members the entire time. All the uncontrolled party memebers are either in the middle of an attack or standing perfectly still. Rather intersting.

Ha, lone. 9 has long been my favorite, and I've never met anyone else who agreed with me on this.



Now if I could just find someone who's realized 8 was better than 7.

You won't, because it isn't. ^_^




But I, too, believe IX to be the best one.

I won't doubt that IX was amazingly close to how older school Final Fantasy games were but I'm still all about VI.

1/2 works for me, SK. I've long ago just consigned myself to the Odd One Out box on the matter of 7 and 8.

I'm not familiar with how all of you first encountered the Final Fantasy series, but as for myself I came to it late and out of order, and I believe that most people who came to 7 first out of the mid-gen games of the series found it to be the revolutionary, great game it was, but this forever tinged their judgments with nostalgia.


Which is probably a rather priggish thing to believe.

Not doubting that this kind of functionality exists (my original post was changed from saying "without immediate character switches that can leave other party members standing still", but was edited to what it says now.), but it's a serious downfall that, in a way, contradicts itself - offers you fully immersive control of one character at a time, but leaves the rest helpless at times.

The AI makes it possible for all characters to be doing something at the same time, without ever taking away from your control. The majority of gamers won't sit there and enjoy not being able to move around in a 3D environment anymore - the days of enemies on one side and you on the other, and only moving in order to execute the attack commanded are certainly on the way out.

TBH I'm stuck thinking that single player RPGs will eventually be a relic of the past, with future RPGs eventually becoming more MMO-esque in that they are played online, and your repertoire of party members being drawn from whoever is online at that moment. But that's a whole other topic. It relates back to what Syn was saying about this feat being achieved if the game allows multiple players on the same console - only, to remove the restriction that all players need to be together in order to do it, it'll be done through online means.




8 would make my list, while 7 wouldn't. Just sayin'. I tend to rate my games by how much I enjoy replaying them, and replaying 7 makes me want to stab things. 8 is one I have played a few times and enjoyed, and 9 is one that feels new every time I do it.




My first was Mystic Quest for the Super Nintendo. Followed shortly thereafter with FF2 and FF3, the NA releases. Really early in my gaming career, I guess. Didn't get back into it until 7 released, which was bloody amazing for it's time. I definitely grant it that. Played the following titles all in order of their release after that, up through 13.

So:

FF 9
FF 13
FF 8
FF 6

TBH I don't know what I'd put in the fifth. None of the other titles really stand out to me. =/

Well, I identify myself with that crowd. 'Far as I can remember, I had only played all of VI and only a little of IV before VII came out; it's just that VI was so amazing to me that I could not help but think that the Final Fantasy series as a whole so far to be immensely awesome, and it led me to anticipate VII's coming with bated breath, even though I was still relatively new to RPG's as a whole. I ... just believed with all of my heart and soul that VII was going to be the greatest game ever int he history of the universe, and I am sure that at least had a small part with me thinking so highly of it when I finally played it.

The weekend I had rented a PS1 and Final Fantasy VII for the first time ever remains one of the greatest, most well-spent weekends of my freakin' life.


But, yeah, VIII is still a really good game,, and I think it measures up well enough with the rest of the Final Fantasy installments. While I was first playing through it, pretty much up to the midst of the SeeD exam in Dollet, I remember even daring to think for a short period of time that it was even better than VII. You have to give most of the props to the beginning CG movie, though; it really had us thinking that we were about to be in for one of the best gaming experiences of our lives.



And, Tifa for ftw.





To hell with Lara Croft. Seriously.

I must be misinformed, then. Because I assumed from a couple videos that the game was back to going to a battle field where enemies sat on different sides, taking turns attacking. Which does not require the use of AI party members. You know, like the older FF games, where controlling every party member was possible.


The Dragon Quest games are well-recieved in Japan, too.


It's just the tradition. Taking world maps into account, they've been a part of RPGs and the Final Fantasy series for a long time, up until FFX. Taking out world maps from Final Fantasy is like taking out bottomless pits from Mario games. Keeping world maps wouldn't be staying old-school. Staying old-school would be more along the lines of having all equipment ridiculously priced. There's nothing broken about world maps.

Now, I should once again point out that I didn't think Final Fantasy 12 was bad. It's just so drastically different from previous entries that it didn't feel like it was part of the same series.

I also still say that the complete removal of towns from FF13 is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. It's like if they released a Mario game with no item blocks.

Yeah, that's not the case. The game has gone back to combat being on a separate field than the real-time world, but the enemies do appear on the screen so you can choose whether or not to engage. The transition to and from battle is so fast that it's barely even considered a transition - only slightly slower than the transition that 12 had even with combat being on the real-time map.

It brings the ATB combat style back, along with bringing in the FFX command line style back and expanding on it further. Some attacks will send you back to where you came from afterward, others will not. You can move if you wish, and commands can be entered when the ATB isn't even full. It's designed to be MMO styled, while still being somewhat single player RPG-esque.



I've played 13. And finished it. Have you?



Each Final Fantasy is a Final Fantasy is name only - most of them have absolutely nothing to do with eachother aside from a few crossover characters (most of which change circumstances/personalities when they do IE Cid) and a few common story plots, like the crystals of the old games.

It's a lot better to think about each Final Fantasy as a separate book by one author - the contents can vary widely from book to book, as can the writing styles. The point, though, is that you know what kind of book you're getting and whether or not you appreciate this author's previous work.

Hating the fact that world maps are gone or towns are gone is like completely disregarding this concept and saying that each book must share many of its elements, which would greatly restrict the level of creativity available to the author. It'd be the same as saying a book set in a post-apocalyptic world where group settlements are no longer viable due to previous circumstances (chosen at the whim of the author) is a bad book because the previous titles always made extensive use of group settlements.

The story wasn't written to have it. There's nothing wrong with this as long as it is executed well, and it is.

Well of course the stories are vastly different in each Final Fantasy. That's not what makes Final Fantasy Final Fantasy. It's the gameplay.