I've been thinking about this a good deal ever since the announcment of SUPER Street Fighter 4. I know that the fighting genre has many different types of game series... each one radically different from the other. Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Mortal Kombat, DOA, Soul Calibur, Tekken, ect. And each person is going to like something else. But for me, I think the main focus for me that I look for in a fighter is heavily based on the ability to combo. I don't care about story mode or graphics or even if it's locked down to 2D or you can strafe. I've got to have a large move set were I can string together as many moves as possible. That's where I get the enjoyment out of the game. I could even lose the match, but if I got off that one 25 hit combo, I feel good about the round reguardless.

With that in mind, I want to address a few things from a few fighters. Starting with the one I hate the most. Soul Calibur. I have never in this game seen a single combo that landed more than 5 hits (that wasn't a single move). I've even actively looked on youtube for specific combo vids... to which I could find none. The entire battle seems to be based on two things: Getting in one hit at a time, or getting a grab that'll throw someone out of the ring. It's basically trading single blows back and forth hoping that your opponent isn't guarding. And that's sad.

It's with this that I would like to address Street Fighter. I know before I even type this that the majority of everyone who reads this (all two of you) that no one will agree with this, for I am in the minority, but Street fighter kind of follows the same path as Soul Calibur. Though locked into 2D (which I actually kind of prefer) the combos are a joke. Yes you can do a 30 hit combo with someone's ultra... but that's just a single button press. That's not a combo. I want to get into the move set, know that I can do a series of moves that lead into another. Hitting 236236 high punch isn't the same thing. So taking out the ultra's, Street fighter is majorly lacking in that area. It goes back to getting in a low kick and a few punches and follow up with a special move... then jumping back. That get's boring rather quickly. And it does not help that half the damn roster are people with the same moves with slightly changed animations and stats. Ken, Akuma, Ryu, Sakura, Dan, Goken, and a few others all have the same freaking moves. An uppercut 360, a stick-foot-out-and-spin-wildly move, and no shoto-clone would be complete without a hakuden.

What kind of fighters DO I like? Well, honestly, the most recent game I've fallen in love with is Blazeblue. Each character in the roster is radically different from every other character. That makes things better right from the start. And this game allows for some crazy ass combos too. You can sit in training mode for hours noting all the moves that could potentually lead to others... you can sit there and find out that you can get at least one more hit in before they hit the ground and top off the combo at a rediculously high number. And the satisfaction of actually doing this? It's awesome. The game also adds quite a vast number of elements too. It does just about everything anyone should want from a fighters.

But honestly (and this is where I'd get the most flac) one of my favorite fighters of all time is Mortal Kombat: Deception. This game had it all. Every single fighter had three completely different move sets (two martial arts and a weapon style) that you could switch on the fly in battle. Each style had their own unique moves that could combo very easily with other moves of the same style, with other styles, or that characters special moves. This leads to MANY different possible combos with any single character. Also, they had interactive environments. Not like soul calibur were you were completely srounded by a possible ring out... but key corners of the area would lead to some interesting deaths... not just falling into the water or what not. Also, I never really cared about fatalities before the series until Deception where they introduced Hara-kiris. Now it's a race between you and your friend to see who can get in their combination fast enough. That made for some really fun times. It makes me wonder why I've never, for the life of me, have found a Mortal Kombat tournament. EVO has had everything but, actually... but then again, I realize I'm part of a minority here, so I'll just have to settle with that. But yeah, that's the kind of fighter player I am.

Then you're the sort of person who can answer me this: How in the world are you able to memorize all those moves? All I'm ever able to do in a fighter is either mash random buttons and hope for the best, or stick with a few simple favorite button combinations with some dodging/defending/throwing on the side.

On that note, I really need to re-aquire some game in the Bloody Roar series. (Ever play that one?)

Training mode. Just play around and find out what works. And once you find something that works, practice it. I guess it's the same way you memorize three minutes worth of lyrics for a song...

I don't think you're in the minority, Lantis.. in fact, I think people are just playing the games that have hype because they can find other people to play them with.

Before you mentioned Blazeblue I knew you would.. because when the game came out I remember thinking mostly the same of what you're pointing out.. every character had something different to bring to the table.. -every- character was unique.

It seems like a lot of fighters have become -very- rudimentary in the fact that at the very basics is the same for all fighters. Two people square off hitting High Punch/Kick, Low Punch/kick and jump.. with varying moves dependent upon position.

But, when so many games flood the market there has to be -some- change.. and there isn't really any change at all. Sure, Street Fighter puts in Ultras and I think that Capcom vs. Marvel game put in breaks (something like that)..

But at the end of the day if you hit down -> Right + Punch you're going to shoot something out of your hands in a majority of these fighters.

Now, aside from this.. I feel you on the combo's.. the majority of combo's end up from something like Chun-li's speed kick.. you time it right and you get 8-12 kicks in for a combo.. but it doesn't feel like you accomplished anything. My first thought about combo's was Mortal Combat.. I think it was 2 or 3 that really expanded on the amount of moves each character had and allowed for some great set-ups and chaining.. but were quite hard to pull off.

I think what they need is a game that lacks blocking Every game I see now on the EVO tournaments through youtube has someone sitting at the back corner of the screen blocking.

Yes, it's a tactic.. and they're waiting to get a good shot in.. but by god is it boring as hell. It's like camping in first person shooters.. just come out and fight!

When these are games all based on twitch skills and 'how good you are'.. why do they put moves in that essentially makes you invulnerable. Now, I'm not saying have open fields from which players can see -every- player.. but this works much better in fighters. They've surprisingly come along way from their basic hit/kick and now they have those breaks/ultras and counters. So, take away the blocking and we'll see a fight that's nothing but countering and breaking and chains.. lots and lots of chains!

/end transmission -- You're not alone

Personally, I think combos have ruined the fighter game experience. After Street Fighter II it all became about parrying and then fighting until you had the right moment to launch the destructive super moves of combos. I liked it better back in the day when it was about the stamina of the fight and not being able to destroy someone so easily.

I think it's funny in your first sentance, you mentioned how you don't like combos... but in the very next one mentioned how you like combos (with the acception of timing).

Also, a greater number of combos (like Blazblue's vast number of upwards 40 hits) doesn't mean it'll do as much damage as other games (like Street Fighters higher ranged combos of 7 hits). Of all genres... I think fighters have the most detail to balance, and high end combo fighters aren't going to let you be able to KO someone in a flurrly of two or three different combos. Besides, Soul Calibur allows for automatic ring out wins... no combos required. Granted, MK: Deception did too, but they were small key areas of the level that were really hard to manuver your opponent into... not completely surrounding your fighting area.

Also, I find it sad and laughable that there was actually an achievement for landing a 7 hit combo in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Incredibly Too Long Of Name For A Fighter HD Remix. I have yet to get that achievement too...

Lantis,

I either misunderstand you or you misunderstand me. I'm not sure where I mention that I like combos but what I more specifically meant is that I like Street Fighter (the original) and Street Fighter II but I don't like it very much after Street Fighter II when it became all about parrying and combos.

In the original Street Fighter it was all about the "super" moves. The fireball, the super-kick and the dragon punch. We used to play entire games where neither player really moved from the start and it was all about who could throw the fireball faster. They of course would cancel midscreen but the faster you threw them the closer they became to cancel toward the opponent and then eventually the opponent wouldn't be able to get the fireball off faster than you could throw it and it would do damage even if they blocked but serious damage if they did not. They would occasional leap one of the last fireballs before dying and you would need to launch a super-kick, hope for a dragon punch, or maybe go for a low sweep of the legs. So this was about the stamina of throwing the fireballs and finishing the fight.

In Street Fighter II once everyone could start to execute the super moves, including the dragon punch at will, it did become more about the combos than before, but there either was no counter tracking how many moves in a row you could string or nobody gave a shiz if there was. The combos could be super distructive (like Guile squat punch, punch, punch, upside down kick, repeat before opponent could get up) but generally nobody except the guy playing Guile liked this. It was not celebrated and it was fixed in later variations. Otherwise the combos were small strings that enhanced the fight but were only a small part of it. Most of the fight was about the stamina necessary to feel out the fighter know when to attack and know when to get away, know when to use a super move, know when to use a regular move, know when to block, know when to flip forward, know when to flip backward, know when to jump and know when to stand and wait it was more like an old school brawl than a contemporary action game and that is what I loved about it.

Actually, I did missunderstand you, sorry about that and thank you for clarifying. Though you mention how much more SF later became to rely on combos... but even in today's versions of the game, their combos are almost a joke. I just don't find Street Fighter to be a 'combo' kind of game... specially, when getting 7 hits in a row is almost impossible if you aren't asian.

That actually sounds boring. Like when somebody chooses a cheap, over-powered character in modern day games and just uses the most powerful attack over and over, except in this case both players have the cheap, over-powerec character.


This sounds more enjoyable. And actually is how I play, with all these games where you could parry and block and sidestep and all that. Waiting for an opening, attacking, and jumping back to avoid the inevitable counter-attack. Granted, we already know not everybody likes this sort of strategy.

Personally, I don't like combos, and they kind of ruin the experience for me. I prefer quick jabs and strikes. My dislike may stem from the fact that I rather suck at fighting games, because I'm often on the recieving end of a combo, with no way to block or cancel the move.

So what do I like? Virtual On. It's not fighting in the classic sense, but it relies much more on strategic movement and mixing up your attacks instead of buttom mashing or learning combos.

Meh. That's my two cents.

And if you like BlazBlue Lantis, try Guilty Gear out if you haven't already. X2 Reload on Xbox was pretty fun.

Oh, trust me, I've played numerous Guilty Gear titles. I'm a big fan of Chip and Axel, but will bust out Sol Badguy from time to time. They even made some references in Blazblue to Chip, and I was all like, woot! Also, the two fighters I used as examples both have a way to break your opponents combos if you get caught up in one. Or you could always rely on your strategic movement that you seem to be found of (assuming it isn't a fighter locked down 2D), just sayin...

I think this thread incorporates all of why I don't like Fighters, honestly.

I think they're a genre for some people.. but I can't waste away my life look at the same backgrounds and fighting the same 10 characters over and over.

I guess that's why I favor RPG's so much more.. generally more depth and more expansive. I look at a few things when I look at fighters..

Remember when I pointed out the 'camping' analogy with blocking in Fighters? I think that's why they put a timer. I mean, if you set infinite time per round (which is generally an option) you could sit there for a looong while.

But, that's the kicker in my mind.. why put a timer when you have a life bar that will inevitably end the bout? Because you're doing something wrong with the pace and progression of the game.

Those are my thoughts exclusively on the matter.. but, I think it's about time the fighter genre as a whole had a major revamp.. possibly bringing it to something like what I've seen of Dissidia in a 3D environment? Not sure if any would agree.. and I've not played the game.. but from what I've seen it seems to do quite a lot different.. but I could be wrong.

@Draygone
The original Street Fighter came out with the special moves before any other game to my knowledge and that was the lure of the game...to get good at doing these moves. There was not much more you could do with it and while it was limited compared to SFII it was still very, very fun.

As for SFII, all you could do is the tactic that you and I mention. It wasn't a strategy it was the way everyone had to play.

But you have to keep in mind the environment for these games which was that they were in person at the arcade. It was a real challenge to have to keep up the stamina with the person standing right next to you to succeed, especially in SFII where you were frequently down but never out until the fight was over.

@SyntheticC
The timer and the bar were both very important because (not only to let others play) but because you couldn't just "camp" but you also had to play with a sense of urgency. You had to complete the fight or outlast the opponent but that didn't really mean that you were doing something wrong with the pace or progression.

And using the same special move over and over was strategy? Either defend them both or defend neither.

So, what would be a strategy in a fighting game?

I've never been too good at fighting games... but I still like them.
I think the once I can enjoy the most are the ones you need less strategy, since I feel on a more even field with a veteran player (I was a hadoken spammer on Street Fighter II)
But while I like to look at flashy attacks that does hundreds of hits, I think they're cheap.
I did enjoy Mortal Kombat Deception, and the ability to mix styles in a combo, but my memory with long button sequences or several sequences is HORRIBLE.

In a way, one of the things I'm more interested in a fighting game is it's story (Tekken, Soul Calibur) and I think that if I really want a story, I should stick with my RPGs. But I still like to get beaten once in a while on a fighter.

I think what interests me is the variety of attacks. Nevermind the lengthy combos of up, down, left, right, B, A and stuff like that. Just that, unlike RPGs or most action games, you've got more than one or two physical attacks at your disposal (yes, I'm ignoring magic). I feel more in control with the character I'm playing, even though I might not have control of the fight.

Maybe I should try out brawlers like the TMNT arcade game and the first Power Rangers game. Would be fun having fighter-like controls in an adventure game.

Okay time for a little comparison:

I looked at youtube for the best combo video I could involving Soul Calibur, this is the best I could do. Count the adverage of hits...

How can anyone find THIS fun.

Also:

This is a video teaching you how to get the 7 hit combo achievement... which Capcom had the audacity to name "Combomaniac"... laughable.

And here's the actual training vid I used when I was getting ready to play Ranked matches online with people in Blazblue.

THAT is much more appealing, if you ask me. And here's the thing, those aren't set in stone combos. You can mix and match certain moves from any of those into any others. And that goes for pretty much every single character in the game.

Also:

This is a 4 part video trying to show off all the characters possible combos... that's 40 minutes worth of video, if that tells you anything at all.

And finally, here's what Street Fighter should have been from the get go and should be now... now sure why they changed the formula when it finally started working:

Just for the fact that I, the player who could never memorize all the buttons to make big combos, would have a chance to get my own smaller attacks in.

In that training vid, a lot of those hits seems to be simply because she has a bunch of blades on her back, not because you're able to make 30 or so different attacks.

The "what Street Fighter should've been" video, that would be fine with me. I'm not entirely sure I'd be able to manage those seven or eight hits in a row (unless I do that whole "pound the opponent against the wall" thing), but at least I might have a chance at fighting back against a person who is an expert at those combos.

Again, even if I get my ass handed to me... if I'm able to pull of a really complex combo, I feel satisfied about the round never the less. And you know you really can like a game if you can enjoy it even if you lose.



But you also saw the button combination before the move was executed, so you know it's not a simple feat. Each blade might not be it's own sigle attack, but it takes a good deal of timing and placment of player/opponent to get them to work propperly. Besides, other characters are able to do combos upwards to that too... and they don't have long range blades.