Yeah, SK got his feathers ruffled a bit by it too. I kind of lol'd. But I do understand and agree with SK's point in that previous thread.

And seriously, Bo. If you are asking "Why this-and that is bad" to stimulate the topic is one thing. But if you are so far out that you can't honestly see why, you must be an anarchist. That or just really absent minded... with all due respect.

general discussion is now a place of hypothetical questions and walls of text about insomnia and relationships

You know, the world is full of opinions and speculation. People will see different sides of a point. However, what's the point of having to DISCUSS at length each opinion? Especially if you want to debate and have it all explained. Sometimes, it's not all in the "truth," but how one feels about the matter. Who cares about all the answers and the absolute truth?

^ to amuse ourselves. DUH! or to amuse bo.. eitherway. for amusement.

SF does kind of have a point. This is the third time I've felt compelled to post in this thread, and for the third time I've decided to not post my point of view. It's not like I'd be changing any minds here or influencing anyone in a positive manner. It all seems kinda pointless.

OK, let's be clear to everyone reading this. No one has to post in any topic that I present. Therefore nobody has to discuss anything they don't want to. Also when I ask questions they are usually general so they are not directed toward you necessarily. Even if they are directed toward an individual you don't have to reply. Therefore if you find yourself compelled to reply in one of my posts I won't accept any responsibility because you can choose not to.

Now, I understand many points of view and one that I do understand that several of you apparently do not, is that if you challenge conventions and if you are self-critical and if you challenge social consistency you are not necessarily anarchistic nor do you necessarily open the floodgates to chaos. Now maybe many of you are conservative and do not believe that there is any reason to be critical of convention or tradition but I believe that both have led us to some negative things in addition to positive things. One way to prevent people from seeing those negative things is by trying to silence them (whether consciously or subconciously) by calling people "anarchist" or "absent-minded" or by saying that chaos must ensue.

I do understand the tradtional dogmatic perspective that stealing is inherently wrong and I also understand the skeptical critically rational perspective that no claim is ever fully justified including that stealing is inherently wrong.

But even if I didn't, what is the point in calling me "absent minded"? Maybe I simply don't share the same perspective but to call whatever perspective I have as absent minded is name calling, an attempt to insult the arguer instead of address the argument OR simply to (what would be the truly respectful thing to do) disengage from the topic at hand.

But it is true, it is easier to attack me than to be self-critical. Anyone stealing any intellectual property out there? I posed this before and it hasn't been addressed (regarding the moral merit of disrespecting someone in a way that they won't feel it akin to other types of stealing or cheating consistent with this topic).

If you guys don't want to engage in a theoretical social and individual self growth then why don't you go back to your posts full of stolen images and data files and have a ball. Oh yeah, and all the while you can hypocritically shout how stealing is wrong because you are to inconvenienced to stick around for some depth in critical analysis.

Otherwise, I'm still here.

And if you don't agree with what I'm saying here then I'll listen to what you have to say.

Well, I simply stated my opinion. I'm sorry that I'm an hypocritical person who is not critical enough that is subconsciously trying to silence you.
I'll just keep myself away from this topic and any other serious discussion, since I know I would never be up to the standards of them.

Bo,

Wow! Now that is an intelligent rant. (That's a compliment.)

I can understand why you'd feel that way after the recent spate of posts. Believe it or not, I'm actually in agreement with you on some of what you said. I'm a critical analyst, too; self-critical and challenging of convention and all that stuff you said. It's actually brought me to the point I'm currently at... theologically, logically, and morally.

I do understand why you want to work your way through these things with analytical thought. It's something I've been doing for many years in the privacy of my own thoughts. Never stop questioning. Never stop finding the answers.

But I tend to be a loner with this kind of thing. Not as much the social animal I used to be. I'll just say that I understand.

(When I said I felt "compelled" to post, I meant "I felt the urge to share my point of view".)

Heh, if you wanted to say that was uncalled for, you didn't have to type a wall to say it. But that's cool too. And instead of typing a wall msyelf, I'm just going to say that it's not hard to see why people think cheating, stealing, ect is bad. Seriously... you know why. I know why. So does everyone. As far as the anarchy comment, I was under the impression that anarchy consists of doing what you want when you want reguardless of what people think is wrong or lawful. And I hope you can see how it would lead me to that conclusion.

I'm sorry you took it so much to heart and I appologize. So instead, I will just say I do think it is wrong and I do not have any other way to explain it other than it's my personal opinion.

Good day.

*boogies out*

Nice to see you put a touch of yourself into something, maybe you've done some self growth

I appreciate all your feedback above.

In an attempt to return to the topic at hand I would like to clarify that while I do completely understand the idea that cheating is 'wrong' I know people who are in relationships (not myself) who believe that cheating is OK under certain circumstances.

My whole point in revising my original question is that I want to have something better to tell them why they shouldn't cheat. I want to have more to say to persuade them than, "You shouldn't cheat because it is wrong. It just is." They will not be swayed because the two things that could prevent them from cheating (their emotional conscience or their mental reason) BOTH disagree with what we have to say.

There is no way that I am going to change their conscience so the only thing that I could hope for is to logically persuade them that they are doing something wrong but they have a strong argument (the one addressed above that in short is what one doesn't know won't hurt them, especially if they never find out) that I can't really seem to get around. I cannot reason that inherently it is wrong to cheat I can only say that I feel that it is wrong.

Since they don't share our feelings that it is wrong then the only thing I can do is try to persuade them rationally and that is why I am asking for your help. It would seem that if "cheating is wrong" is not just a feeling then I should be able to present a logical argument against it (i.e. one that doesn't rely on feeling or emotion as the weight to make its case) and I don't find that I can do that.

Since they would also be doing something that we agree/feel is wrong, I don't feel it is responsible for me to ignore it.

There's no way I can answer that without going into religious territory, which would be unconvincing to anyone who doesn't share such religious faith. I suppose I could try a logical approach. Let's set aside the argument that what someone else doesn't know won't hurt them. That's really beside the point. Logically, it hurts you (the one who is cheating) because you are setting up a pattern of self destructive behavor for yourself. "I can get away with this as long as the person who would be hurt by it never finds out." Not only is that a cop out (a way of convincing oneself that there's nothing wrong with what one is doing), it also sets a precedent. "I got away with this because he/she never found out. Tee-hee! I'm so clever! What else can I get away with?" It's still a lie. A double lie in this case. You're not only lying to your significant other, you're also lying to yourself. You didn't get away with anything. Even if no one else ever finds out, you'll know the difference.

Still, I have a feeling this argument would fall on deaf ears of the morally bankrupt people you know. Their argument seems to be that the end justifies the means. Lying about the whole thing (even to yourself) is okay as long as the desired result is achieved. What you should really be discussing here is "Why is lying wrong?"

You know, the path of integrity really is an easy road in my opinion. It's simple, true to itself, and not complicated like the path of lies is. That's why God encourages us to choose to be like him and embrace the ways of truth.

"Choice. The problem is choice." ~ Neo, "The Matrix"

(Side note: You've gotta stop doing this kind of thing where you present a situation and then your ulterior motive is only revealed when coerced out of you. Just come out and say what the deal is. Now that I know that there's a decent reason why this whole debate exists here, it takes on a new and different meaning, from my point of view. Trying to come up with a convincing argument to present to your friends is more meaningful to me than just talking about the issue for no appreciable reason.)

*after reading all of Bo's last several posts in this thread*

.... Okay, I am just going to ask it straight up ->

ARE YOU SIMPLY AN ANARCHIST, BO?

No. I am not an anarchist. An anarchist simply wants to destroy institutions probably to watch people suffer or because they want no consistency whatsoever. If anything, the sadistical side of me is as a provoceteur. I like to challenge traditional institutions to watch people struggle...trying to justify them consistently. Only part of that is sadistical and I fess up to that. The MUCH larger part is that I do not find myself satisfied in my culture/society where people adopt beliefs, behaviors, and traditional practices unchallenged. I am especially bothered if these beliefs, behaviors, and traditional practices actually enable if not directly cause suffering to others. A historical example (for the sake of clear demonstration) is black slavery. Now, most people wouldn't even think twice that this "wrong" but in the early 1800's, quite the opposite. It would have been traditional common sense at the time that owning black slaves was A-OK. At least to those people who were not free thinkers and progressives. I am sure at that time many people questioned if they were anarchists too.

I am a modern day free thinker and progressive about morality. I believe it is relative. That's all. Is that inherently anarchistic? I don't think so. But I leave it up to other people's relative beliefs to judge for themselves.

Oh, hi, I'm casting divine intervention on that sh*t.



You haven't the slightest clue what anarchism is striving to achieve outside of the very narrow perspective of people who like the concept of anarchy but fail to realize that concept goes far beyond lacking government or, more accurately, a governing body.

I'd really appreciate it if you don't take your ridiculous ideas from what misinformed heavily zealous twats spew from their young and.. uninquisitive minds.

It's a lot like people trying to falsify or discredit the scientific method without having ever taken part in the process of the scientific method and/or lack any credentials that people who have dedicated lives to understanding the world would normally have.

Or a class of students in a high school science class debating the validity of string theory, for something a little more basic.

Basically, shut the f*ck up about anarchism unless you know a damn thing about it. Thanks.

(And, no, your rebuttal really is not required. I am TELLING you to drop the subject if you're going to blatantly show such a false understanding of it. Take it to the perpetual argumentation thread if you really want to, and I will happily ignore it.

Back to regular scheduled programming, less this thread will find its time quite over.)

I'd want to know, just for the simple fact of getting even would be fun...lol

I told her when we got together that I dont care if she cheats on me, which I dont...its just sex, nothing special about it, our bond is mental and emotional, not physical...and having to worry about "is she cheating on me?" just isnt worth the stress.