jup.

Recovering your own password is one thing. Looking to see how something is done when it is intentionally locked by the desginer seems like a violation of respect for the designer's privacy.

I can definitely agree with that to a degree. Stealing ideas and claiming them as your own is definitely a disrespectful thing to do.

But I think that seeing how the advanced games are made can really help people improve their own games. I think it helps the community for people to be able to see how an effect is actually created, rather than having to start from scratch and figure out the method on their own if they want to do something like it in their own game. And when a procedure is common knowledge, people can find ways to improve it and adapt it to other purposes as well.

However, when you look at someone else's work, you need to respect it and give them credit for the things you're learning. I think that if you use something you learned from looking at a game, it should be common courtesy to include the creator in your credits as a sign of respect for the work they did.

I do realize that this was kind of a controversial thing to post and in hindsight, though I asked if it would be okay to post at the pavilion, I should have asked here as well so I apologize for that.

While it would be beneficial to look at somebody's game data to learn how they do things, I think that if a person put a password on their game so nobody could look at their data, there's a 92.6% chance that person didn't want anybody looking at their data.

That's a good point. I'll admit I may have jumped the gun on releasing this, so from now on I'll definitely wait until there's more discussion before I release anything else like this. I could probably do the same thing for RPGM2 and 3 given some saves to look at, but I definitely want to do what's in the best interest of the community.

I think it makes for a good debate, though. I'm also a coder for an open source game engine called OpenBOR and we kind of had the same issue come up a while back but in reverse: currently everything from the engine to the games people make with it are open source and the head coder proposed a way to encrypt games. Nobody was really enthusiastic about it though, as the best way to learn to make a game, for OpenBOR at least, is by looking at examples. By allowing encryption, there'd inevitably be games that did some really innovative techniques that other people wouldn't be able to use without figuring them out on their own. So encryption still hasn't been added.

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this. If it turns out that this isn't what the community wants, I wouldn't have a problem with it being deleted to keep abuse from being too wide-spread. I'd still be willing to unlock any games that people have lost their passwords for, so that aspect of it won't go to waste at least.

Well, if it adds to the debate, if I recall, RPGM3 doesn't have a password-protection system, and some people weren't too happy about that.

dont apologies for releasing something that was already known but not exactly practiced. once upon a time people where able to do this as a service but that person has long since disappeared. we needed this knowledge ages ago, so now that its public, lets use it for good not evil.

as valk said at the pav, the positives outweigh the negatives. based on this, this information stays as i agree fully. the rpg maker 1 community is very small, if there is anyone in the practice of theft, we will know of it and its very doubtful 10 years into the software's life.

Definitely, it would be ridiculous for anyone to try and pass off others' techniques as their own.

But I guess the question left is this: Is it theft to apply techniques from other games to yours as long as you're honest about where they came from?

I'd argue that it's not, for the reasons I've stated before. I think that it makes a better community for things to be open source. It makes it less about the coding techniques and more about how you use them to enhance your game. And if you're just reusing other people's techniques without making any innovations yourself, your game will definitely show it.

I think if someones going to go through that much effort just to see how you put something together, they earned it and you should feel flattered they are THAT worried about it.

Though I think we are kind of missing the point here. For those who forgot their password, this is INVALUABLE.

Welcome to the Mag, first and foremost, kbandressen.

And you enter the community with one helluva announcement! I saw you post this at the Pav earlier, but I did not have time to post on it at the time.

Now that I do, I'm in favor of using this information wisely. The ability to recover passwords is INVALUABLE (as Lantis so eloquently put it ).

However, the thing that people are not getting is that even if these people looked through your code, they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they actually copied it part for part. In addition, we could easily tell who did what first because of the game submission timestamps on both sites.

The people who would use this to take other people's ideas will have their games removed from RPGMM and likely be banned, as well.

Consistent with all the posts above, including my first one, I think it is very important to be able to retrieve your own password. It is way to easy to forget your password and have no way of ever getting it back from RPGM1 or 2, unlike say in an online system where someone can email it to you.

But if someone were willing to faithfully do this as a service then we wouldn't need to let others know how to get through other people's passwords.

But my point originally and presently is more precisely this. I myself would probably never use a password because I WOULD want to let others look to see how I did something if they are interested because I agree that it is good for the community. But that is me. It is also good for the community to respect the desginers privacy regardless of whether or not one could benefit from their expertise and regardless of their motivation to prevent you from seeing something. Some might fear that you will steal their methods, some might fear that others will catch up to their level of ability, etc. In my personal opinion these are all insecure motivations, but you know what, it doesn't matter. They have a reasonable expectation of privacy via the password, that is what it is there for, anyone who breaks in is doing just that, and anyone who wants to help others with RPGM can always leave the password out, and like me be willing to answer any direct questions about how to do something without requiring others to justify bypassing intention personal privacy safeguards. It is a personal choice for RPGMs 1 and 2 if you want to let others see how you did your work.

EDIT: Let me be clear that I don't necessarily mean that one shouldn't publish how to get your password even if it means that you can see how to get others password. I'm just saying that ignoring the fact that it is there for someone else's game and saying that I deserve to be able to their password or the community deserves to be able to see their password without permission is an unfounded rationalization.

we are all arguing a moot point since the moment it was posted at the pav, the decision was made for us. with valks seal of approval, whatever damage that could be done was done.

but really people? how egotistical can you all be to think that your game is so important that it warrants a password to begin with? must you be so greedy with how you developed your events that you feel no one else should have access to it. even more so since such thoughts are counter to a site like this which houses ways to do things, promotes peer help, and fosters being the first to demonstrate your talent.

there shouldnt be a password on any of our works, we are quite simply over such petty foolishness.


i think that covers all possible viewpoints. is there a way to split posts on this forum? ohh, nm, i got an idea.

We are not entirely arguing a moot point. Just because this has been made available doesn't mean that someone has to use it inappropriately. That is what I am arguing, to not justify abusing its use.

And to be honest, you don't have to be egotistical to use a password, just private. Many non-egotistical people are very private.

I agree with you, Karr. I'd see a reason to argue it if there was some kind of financial loss to it, but as it stands... I highly doubt anyone's actually made money off of RM1.

But you are right, we are arguing something extremely moot. Because reguardless of anything anyone says to justify it... whoever things it's wrong can just come back and say, "But you CAN take it without permission" and as repetitive as it may be, they will throw that in your face every time.

So in closing, the ability is there. Us it if you want, but don't if you thing there's something wrong.

thats just it, no mater what we say or try to govern, the chips are going to fall according to each individual. its a morality choice the same as all others. we already know that maybe people want to keep their work private, and most of us will respect that.

I'd like to add that I am one of those who uses the password feature. But I'm not doing it for privacy, because I do want to allow the player to see how I did stuff. The thing of it is, I don't want the player to look into my game to see stuff that's coming up, especially if this is a demo I released. I want the player to experience what the game has, first. Eventually, the password will be handed out in some obvious but out of the way spot.

As far as that password recovery thingy goes, some people are afraid of hex.

I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, who's actually going to use this knowledge to steal? With member that are so willing to help it's practically not an issue. Lantis kinda helped me with my custom menus. I figured it out before he replied, but he was still very helpful. You don’t need to go into anyone’s games when you can ask and people will generally tell you how to do/approach things.

Also, welcome to the mag and pav.

Not everyone is set in their ways about every issue. Sometimes it actually helps to present both sides of an issue and in this case, it is an especially interesting dilemma because there can be both good and bad depending on how you look at it.

It is is therefore premature to assume that everyone will simply do whatever they will do and not comment further. There is the potential for ethical growth unless everyone is silent. Sometimes it helps for people to speak up about what is acceptable behavior within the community. Some people actually listen and may change their mind. They may choose to respect the password even if it is possible for them not to, so long as enough people reinforce the idea that the password, in this community, is worth respecting.

In other words, some people have SELF discipline and standards, i.e. ones that don't require impossibility of an action as means of enforcement but rather their own value system and some people with these standards don't know how the action is viewed socially. That is why it is relevant to address opinions on these issues.

Right, that should definitely be the first step in trying to learn how to do something. If the creator is there to explain things for you, then there's no need for any other measures.

Or you could just ask for the password. I mean, who'd honestly say no? I'm passwording mine... but I'm also putting the password somewhere in the game. Probably after the end.