http://abyssalleviathin.wordpress.com/2 ... -is-dying/


since this is a hot discussion right now, lets see what you guys feel about this.

"Culture of criticism" is spot on.

Criticism (not the constructive type) is discouraging. There is no excuse for being critical of someone else's work in a community like this. If you want to be critical of commercial games, that's fine. Whole teams of developers work on commercial products, and they pick up a paycheck for it. No money changes hands here (I haven't seen a penny for my work), and we design games because we want to and for no other reason. That makes it very personal. There's a mountain of difference between what we do here and what commercial developers do. It's apples and oranges. You shouldn't apply the same standards of critical thought that you do when you're writing a review of a commercial product. An RPG Maker game isn't a commercial product. It's something that some guy made at home. Expectations should be lower.

Also, slapping a label of "constructive criticism" on criticism doesn't make it constructive. There's a vast chasm of difference between something that's genuinely helpful and something that's just plain negative.

These communities should be places that welcome creativity and nurture it. In some regards, the Mag is more of a success at this than other communities are. No matter what form the seeds of creativity take, they need to be watered so they can blossom. Criticism is a knife wound to the chest of creativity.

Would've been nice had the guy been able to give an explanation for some of these reasons. So I'll put in my own thoughts of some of these.

"1.) People saying the RPG Maker community is dying."

Actually this happens a lot, but it usually is a joke. Lately it seems true, and that's why people are saying it now. But looking around (and at that "What are you doing" topic I made), it seems part of the problem is actually that we're just not as outspoken and noticed. So the community may not be bursting with energy, but it isn't dying, either.

"2.) Culture of criticism."

What Crythania said.

"3.) Self conscious makers."

Open to interpretation? This could've used an explanation, 'cause I'm not sure I understand, so I'll take a guess and say that we're too worried about what others might think of our game. And it's true. One of the reasons (read: excuses) SR progress came to a halt for so long was that I was too worried about what people might think of some of the game.

"4.) Community dead weights."

Meaning, what? Inactive RPGMers? People around not doing RPGM stuff? Sounds like the Pavilion. Not to say there isn't RPGMing going on there, but most of the place, to me, feels more like a place to chat than a place for RPGM. And to an extent, it's felt the same way here, too.

"5.) Too many platforms."

RPG Maker, RPG Maker 2, RPG Maker 3, RPG Maker XP, and RPG Maker VX. I can see how one might think that's too many, but really, I don't think it's a problem at all. Each RPGM offers different abilities, advantages and disadvantages, and I think that's a real good thing. It means a person can look at the different RPGMs available and choose which one they feel like they can get the most out of. And that's clearly the case we have here.

"6.) Overly ambitious projects."

This hit the mark dead-on.

"7.) Dead end projects."

So many demos not being anything more.

"8.) Stinginess."

This needs explanation.

"9.) Lack of resource artists."

This is obviously more about the PC communities.

"10.) Lack of releases."

Whether this would mean for RPGM releases or RPGM-made releases, it's true on both counts. Part of the problem being, too many of us are working on games that have taken years to complete.

I was going to say just that, but I was afraid that someone from the Pav would see it, take offense, and start harassing me.

There are many things that can contribute to a dead weight that causes the site to take on an entirely new meaning contrary to its original purpose.

At the moment, I'm chatting (writing this post). I've decided to sit here and chat instead of working on a project. When I get to working on a project, I'm not likely to say much here because I'll be busy doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I feel the same way about gaming message boards. There's an awful lot of activity on boards that are about video games. I wonder how much activity there would be if everyone was busy doing what they're supposed to be doing (playing video games). I'm not saying that socializing about video games is a bad thing. Rather, there's way too much of it going on. If everyone's posting daily about video games, where are they finding the time to actually play the games they're talking about?

Also, Crythania is dead. I am The Xix.

My two cents: I wasn't around for the earlier waves of RPGM1 submissions. I bought RPGM1 well after it came out but I did buy both RPGM2 and RPGM3 the day they respectively came out. However, I wasn't really active at the Mag until a little after RPGM3 came out. The reason i bring this up is that in my opinion there are 2 problems bigger than anything for why the community may be (or may seem to be) dying.

The first I also completely agree is overly ambitious projects, yet this apparently by looking in the vault, didn't stop others from submitting a tremendous amount of RPGM1 games. So I have to defer to the community that has been here from the start as to why this apparently a problem now but not in earlier times. My thoughts are that RPG Maker (as a genre itself) was so new and exciting when it first came out that nothing can really compete with that (although things like XBOX Live Community games through XNA may help in the future to reawake interest in Role Playing Game making).

I also assume that many people were competing to be the first to get their ideas out there so rather than develop a project that took a lot of time, they condensed it as much as possible. Also, more people making more games kind of hides the fact, by releases being staggered chronologically, that some projects take a long time. In other words, you only really notice how long some games take to make when every ambitious designer simultaneously is at the same percentage of progress with nothing coming out by others in the mean time. I also think that RPGM1 was the most conducive game to sustain the community not because it is the best but because RPGM2 does take too long to make a game, and RPGM3, which is by far the fastest, is too limited for some peoples tastes (but certainly not mine). Therefore, the glory days were a special event (which I was not around for) which will never return.

That having been said, we don't need them to return, we need either consistent progression always or a renaissance. This brings me to the biggest problem facing the RPGM community. Everything is last or earlier generation. Not only do we not have a new console game maker since RPGM3, which is adolescent now and soon will be a full grown adult, but we don't have one that has been made for the PS3, the XBOX 360, or the wii. Many gamers simply will not be interested in playing games or making games for earlier generations, which is a recruitment problem, even if all of us still here know just how remarkable the RPG Maker brand continues to be.

We gotta take a break from it all at some point. And besides which, I find that chatting about our games can help boost motivation a little.



Not sure, myself. I didn't join the community until a couple years after the community started. Maybe we didn't know just what power RPGM had. Or maybe we didn't think the community would be around long enough to bother with epic games. But what I think happened is that ambitious games were just as much a problem back then as it was now. Just that back then, there were a lot more people discovering the RPGMing community. Heck, I was one of those who tried joining with a project too ambitious. Ever heard of a game called Slayers' Reign?

I should have spoken for myself and from personal experience. My bad. We all have our own different ways of taking a break and gaining personal motivation.

In my personal experience, when I am sitting at the computer chatting about video games or projects, I am usually being lazy. Not all the time. Just most of the time. It's very easy to sit at the computer and veg, chatting and posting and reading stuff, what have you. Time passes, and before I know it I've spent many more hours online than I really wanted to. It's just... easy.

When I am working on a project, it is work. Enjoyable work, but work nonetheless. It's very easy to do anything that's not work. A bit harder to turn on the PS2, load up the game, and do stuff with it. When I get going on it and I'm really into it, I'll work on it for hours at a time.

I believe that being lazy is a choice. Also, there's a difference between taking a break from the work and just being lazy. I have nothing against taking a break. But in my personal work ethic, I need to differentiate between what is a genuine break and what's plain ol' laziness.

I think there are a few reasons why there is so much activity on message boards about video games. The first reason is that the internet is much more accessible than it was, say, back during the Nintendo/Sega Genesis days. I remember when I was paying $3 an hour just to be online. That wasn't very long ago. Back druing the mid/late 90s. It's much easier to get online and chat now than it was when I was playing Genesis games all the time. Because it wasn't as easy to get online back then, I spent much of my time playing video games and very little time chatting about it (word of mouth, literally).

The second reason is because gaming has changed. Nowadays, all you have to do is get through a level and save your progress. Compare this to a Sonic game on the Sega Genesis. Hindsight has 20/20 vision; I could be mistaken here; but I remember when I first got my Genesis with Sonic 1 and 2; I spent months working on them. In Sonic 1, I got stuck on the underwater level and couldn't get through it. I'd lose all my lives, and guess what happens next! Game over! I had to start over at the beginning in the Green Hill Zone and work my way up toward the place where I left off, try again, make some progress, maybe learn the layout a bit better, then hit another wall, get a Game Over, and... try again from the beginning. I remember I had the first few levels mastered because I was playing them so often. That's how video games were back then. For the most part, they forced you to be good at them by practicing so that you can make it to the end in one sitting.

Nowadays, all you have to do is make it through a level once, save your progress, and you never have to do it again. And I guess many gamers will just play through a game once and never touch it again. I'm more sentimental. I still have faves from the Nintendo/Genesis era that I come back to once in a while. I have a few PS2 faves. Even though I already know what's going to happen, I play through it again because it's a fun game to play. The "beat the game and see the ending" mentality is not a good reason for playing video games. Playing the game is a good reason for playing it. Play it because it's enjoyable. Seeing the ending is just a natural part of the game's progression. After you've seen the ending, what next? It's over. What do we do now? Play it again or find another game.

The third reason is because video games are much more accessible than they used to be. During the Nintendo/Genesis era, I was excited to get a new game for $50, and that was usually all I could afford. Prices tend to drop much more quickly nowadays. There are bargain bins full of games that aren't all that old. The average video game's value depreciates much more quickly than they did during the Nintendo/Genesis era. They're more accessible; thus, we can afford to buy a game, play it, toss it aside, and get another. Back during the 90s, I was happy with the few games I had. I played the same ones over and over because I couldn't afford to get new ones all the time.

You know, sometimes I just can't understand you guys. This is not directed to anyone in particular. I have actually heard several of you say the type of thing I am about to address.

We all have responsibilities that take our time away from game making (friends, family, school, work, etc.) Everyone understands that. There is probably a lot of time that we'd rather be game making.

But what I don't understand about those of you who do have the time (either because you have little responsibilities or because you have some free time), but still don't feel like loading your copy of one of the RPGM games, is that you even bother worrying about it.

It doesn't matter if you are unmotivated or lazy or whatever, if you don't feel like using one of the RPGMs on a given day, or ever, so what? Don't bother.

I myself can never have enough time to use RPGM, it never feels like work to me (even if it is repetitive programming that gets annoying, I still enjoy it) and I almost wish I had less motivation because I wouldn't spend so much time wanting to play it.

If you don't feel like creating with one of the RPGMs when you do have the time, just admit that it is not a priority in your life. There is nothing wrong with that. But don't feel guilty for not completing a project because if you really wanted to and you have the time you would.

I worry about it because this project should've been done years ago. And just because I didn't feel like working on it doesn't mean I didn't want to. Laziness is just a difficult spiral to get out of.

It is not that you didn't want to. It is that you didn't want to enough. Laziness is no reason. Lack of time, chonic fatigue, other responsibiliities, these are all reasons. Laziness is an excues or it is revelaing that you don't have RPGM as a priority, i.e. one that is strong enough to overcome laziness! Jeesh!

P.S. Just ADMIT IT!!!!!

Alright! I admit it! I was too dang lazy!

No! I'm saying don't say 'lazy'. That is an excuse. Say that RPGM is not a real priority.

I'm sorry I don't know why my above post was so agressive. I wasn't buzzin.

But my point is that as long as you say you are lazy you can keep putting the game off. If you really want to make it you will. If you only want to a little but not enough you won't and you'll call yourself lazy as an excuse to not have to. You can also embrace the idea that you are not going to complete the game (which is fine, you don't have to) to end the (potential) charade to yourself (first and foremost) and us, but as long as you rely on the term 'lazy' you just postpone any work on it as well as a decision to give up on the game altogether. It seems less laziness and more indecision.

EDIT: The reason that I am adamant to you and others about this is because all of you seem to think you HAVE to complete your games when you don't. Pardon the 'should', but as I see it you 'should' only use RPGMs if you enjoy it. If you enjoy it occasionally then you can comfortably embrace that the game won't come out for ten years because your goal is not first to complete the game but rather primarily to occasionally enjoy using RPGM from time to time. If you don't look forward to using RPGM then I don't think you should ever bother because you don't have to. It is supposed to be fun.

Bon's pretty much right, it's laziness

Since Sunday is a lazy day, I have a much more bigger urge to work on my game that day.

Trust me, the procrastination that kept me from working on my game hardly has a higher priority. I really do want to finish this game. I always have, save for that one month, so stop telling me that I don't really care.

I never said you didn't care. I said it is not as much a priority as not working on it. I won't say anything further on this for now because I don't want to continue to attack, however you can respond if you want, but to summarize this topic in general to everyone, RPGM is meant to be fun. A community of game designers are only worth something if that community is having fun making games. I don't see the point in pressuring others (or oneself) to complete the game if you aren't having fun doing it. Hopefully enough people we'll see how enjoyable this is and that will be motivation enough for them to complete there games and if it isn't thats fine too. Nobody is required to complete a game for someone else nor are they required to do so on anyone's time table. If no games come out because designers aren't ready, that's fine, even if it is years in the making.

Fair enough. I was having fun making SR. But like any game I play, I got distracted by something more fun. I mean, how many "games" out there am I able to be my own character (the dracoon in my avatar)? Granted, I do have a sprite of myself, but I do not need to be in SR. Especially when there's already another character named Draygone in it.

But that "more fun" still amounted to procrastination, and that's what bothered me.

Thank for the link in the RPGM forum at the Pav, Ix. It eventually led me to this thread, because I've been too lazy to come and find it by myself.


My major problem is that I'm bipolar and not taking my meds (and I'm NOT using this as an excuse....I'm admitting, as Bo indicated, that RPGM is not a priority right now). Reason is, being in electronics sales, the mania and rush and euphoria from selling feeds on itself, and gives me more energy and enthusiasm to continue being upbeat, which results in more sales and more satisfied customers.

I've tried MANY times in the past two years now to turn on RPGM3 and work on something, but I've found that my attention span and motivation to actually work on something is next to nil. Contrast this to late 2005 to late 2006, during which time I released Series 1, A Series Aside, the S3 demo for mag review, the teaser for S4: A Dark Day Dawns Episode 1, and another 2-4 unfinished projects (including a good two hours of gameplay in the actual Ep. 1 of S4). Difference is, I was on my meds at that point, but was in pricing (not sales) at work, and was miserable at work every day.

Since that fertile period, I've only released 3 garbage games, written one review for the mag, proofread one more, and taken ownership of the Pav's minigame contest, which is still ongoing. I've worked on at least 3-4 game ideas in that time, but almost all never got much further than a good portion of time spent brainstorming, and barely a few hours actually working on those ideas in RPGM3.


I'm HOPING that judging this minigame contest will give me the kickstart I need, because now I have an actual responsibility to the community at large, and not just myself.


So, in a nutshell, work is better (and I make a LOT more money) now, but my creativity and motivation are crippled, to the point that I can usually only get a few hours into even "real" video games before getting bored and giving up and moving on to something else (usually posting at the Pav).

So in my case, it's not laziness, as much as it is my motivation is really pretty much next to nothing. Sales will drop off at the beginning on next year, and I'm considering taking my meds again to allow me to focus on something besides posting at the Pav.

My problem is definitely over-ambition.

But, in regards to the overall picture- despite the fact there's less games these days and such, I am glad with the time spent on the Pavilion, and more importantly I'm glad to spend time here socializing.

I love to read about the games being developed, and also to play them when circumstances permit(My own Ps2 is MIA).

But I think the birth of the two VERY social communities was also a really nice thing, and shouldn't be a total negative.