What do you say whenever a party member loses all HP in a Final Fantasy title?

It's usually along the lines of, "I should use a Pheonix Down."

I have come to believe that this is grammatically incorrect. And I believe the root of this misconceptions is faulted by the game, its self. First, what is down?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_feather



Okay, so we can assume down is a layer of more than one feather. And with that, down is a word that describes a collection of feathers... feathers, of course, being plural. So in Final Fantasy, the item in question is a collection or "layer" of feathers from a Pheonix.

So instead of saying that you'll use A Pheonix Down... you are actually using SOME Pheonix Down.

Look at it this way. Let's compare a molecule of water to just one of these fine feathers. A collection of water molecules isn't call "a water" it's either just called "water" or "some water". The only time it is ever refered to as "a water" is if it is contained by something like a bottle or something. Likewise, if you ever wanted to say "a pheonix down" it would have to be incased in something like a pillow or a jacket so you could say "a pheonix down jacket" or "a pheonix down pillow."

The reason why we miss on this is because whenever we get the item, it is united by the game's programming. Everything is measured in quatity reguardless if it is plural or singular.

Is this a big deal? Not at all... in fact, it's probably one of the most inane point to ever be brought up in the Mag. But never the less, I share it.

So next time you see Sephiroth impales Aeris with a freaking 10 foot long katana... give her SOME pheonix down and be on your happy way. ^_^

::edit::

Oh, and btw... about that whole using some pheonix down after Sephiroth stabs Aeris. That is also incorrect. Pheonix Down revives someone from KO or Unconciousness. They aren't dead. They are just knocked out. If someone is truely dead, pheonix down won't do a damn thing. You game over after every one is unconcious because you are defenceless from the enemy coming over and be-heading you... or whatever form of death they so desire upon you.

I would first like to say that I hate you.

This is an argument that Jay and I have already had...and btw..I think he's a flippin idiot for it. Mostly for this one fact.

Down does not have to be a bunch of feathers! One single piece of down can still be referred to as down. It's like the plural of moose is moose. Or deer is deer. Down is down in any amount.

Also. Wiki article.


Down just refers to what type of feather is being used.

I don't give credit to that wiki article on the account that it's main focus is on "Elements of Final Fantasy" and not the specifics of the word "Down."

Besides your quote said it's "supposed to be" which isn't, by any means, certain.

Try again.

And how about a response to the fact that down is down no matter the amount?

Or the fact that there is no way to prove the amount so the argument can be dropped by both parties?

Read my point about water: in my example... water is water no matter the ammount. It doesn't change the gramatic nature of it being pular or singular.

and moose are moose and deer are deer.

You're comparing a solid to a liquid which changes the context... I'm comparing pieces of animals to animals themselves. All of which are solids.

You realize that in FFXII, when you get the item, it says 'You got a tuft of Phoenix Down'?

^^

Squeenix had already thought about that. =P

OH... I see. Because you think the plural form of down is down that you have a point.

Well guess what. If I see a a group of deer... I don't say, "Hey, a deer!" I say, "Hey SOME deer."

So honestly, I don't know where you are driving your point.



Lol @ Gnasher... apparently they decided to get it right for a change. ^_^

See Kajak... if you take 'tuft of' out of 'You got a tuft of Phoenix Down' you have a grammatically incorrect sentance. Tuft to down is like the bottle is to water. And seeing as you don't like me using water. How about something not liquid... seeing as somehow that matter. How about a bag of M&Ms. Without the bag... you don't have A M&M(s)... you have SOME M&Ms.

My point is that they don't say a or some..... They just say Phoenix Down (in all the older games)

Meaning you cannot draw from that whether it is singular or plural.

And for the love of god Jay. Down does not have to be multiple feathers. Yes that layer is called down. But all the feathers in that layer are also each called down.

No they aren't... they are called feathers.

Grammar is overrated.

@Lantis - Down is the type of feather they are. Not the quantity.

@Gnasher - That's a good point.... But in response to that I'd like to point out the times it's been worded as phoenix Tail (or other forms) and say that that is clearly singular. So i think they cancel each other out.

Plus..I think it detracts from the argument to consider modifiers outside of "Phoenix Down". Since Jay can't grasp that down doesn't automatically mean one or many.

Like I've said. We've done this argument before.... Grammatically A or some is correct. But he refuses to leave it at that.

A Pheonix Down is wrong.

A Tuft of Pheonix Down is correct.

Hell, a bottle, bag, jar, sack, box, backpack, pocket... anything of pheonix down would be correct. but without a modifier... no. you can't say it that way.

Not to rain on your parade here, but doesn't down refer not to where the feathers and from, but instead point to the fact that the person is down?

Pheonix Down. I always thought it was like you used a pheonix on someone that's down, or KO'ed.

I'm afraid not sir... Kajak's wiki article is enough proof for that. Besides, seeing as down is a name for feathers, it makes alot more sense than saying that it's because your party member(s) are laying down on the ground.

I don't know why, but this arguement feels like it needs a "Who cares? It is just one little item. When it comes to video games and grammar, there is much bigger fish to fry.

I agree. I guess I just like to ruffle Jeremy's down. ^_^

I over looked that one sentence and now I feel like a total ass...

All your base are belongs to us.

most moot argument to ever exist and not worth any kind of statement yet ill toss my opinion into the ring to further add legitimacy to this entirely pointless argument.

a down feather is everything as mentioned already. its not a finite quantity, but just a type of feather (in this case the fine feathers of a phoenix).

the problems lie when you look at the different fantasies. in some the animination is a single feather reviving a ko'd party member, in others its a whole dump of feathers reviving them. so you cant say that the item in question has a numbered value and would thus make it plural without seeing the actual quantity displayed by an animation if there was any.

additionally you people forget another key part of the whole equation here, that the name phoenix down is a product name rather then its literal counterpart. in the store you ask for a portion or another product, but you ask for it by name (its spelled with a capitol i believe when you discover this item, also proving the product name theory).

we also seem to forget that during translation a lot of stuff gets over looked and the best results are not always made. there are tons of code that has to be deciphered and it really isnt practical to sit down and pick through the grammatical mistakes or hold a debate over the use of items and which grammar best suits them. be thankful most games are doing better then the predecessors of the past. we could of very well have had another zero wing, which is riddled with every mistake imaginable.

in conclusion i would say that the choice of words isnt the best. does it really mater though? not one damn bit. if it couldnt save aries, then it certainly in hell isnt going to save a grammar discussion.

with an increase in people whos english isnt their first language, i would have to agree that grammar really is overrated. i know i dont play any video game for its scholarly accuracy or pause long enough to give a fig.

Both wiki articles linked here and every single one I have looked at has referred to "down" as a collection of feathers, or some other variant to say multiple.

I have looked at 3 physical dictionaries, as well as dictionary.com and found the same thing.

Thus, "down" is inherently plural.

Also, since "down" is a branch of feathers, simply saying "feather" is too ambiguous. By extension of that fact, saying "a down feather" may be a way to specify just one.

It seems that the only way to refer to one feather from the down, is like I just did. "A feather from the down." That, or another way to say that, would imply one feather being removed from the down - which is a group/collection/etc.

Either way, the term down can't seem to be used in a way that keeps its meaning and context which will automatically mean just one feather from it.

So.. unless you can provide a reliable source that says "down" can be singular - something so reliable that it overpowers all of wikipedia and 4 dictionary sources - then Lantis takes the win.

Oh, and Karr: the whole point Lantis made this was to prove the Final Fantasy translations that use "Phoenix Down" to be grammatically incorrect. Saying that things are lost in translation really doesn't help you in what I can conject you are trying to say.

The whole point is the use of the English language. What was used in the original source is completely irrelevent.