There's a quote I remembered from a book called The Perks Of Being a Wallflower that I think fits very well here. "You accept the love you think you deserve." I'm not going to go off on a tirade about bad parenting skills, low self-esteems, or just society at large. All I want to say is that sometimes people just don't feel nice about themselves(As if I had to tell you this) and they react in different ways. Some people better themselves while others just accept that they are "sub-par" and most people, from what I've seen, don't better themselves. Just because you would run away from a situation doesn't mean another person can.

In that particular case I not only have no sympathy for them....I lose respect for them as human beings. Call me fanciful, but I believe the will to overcome comes from oneself. sh*tty childhood? All the more reason the persevere and give your children the best. You were abused? All the more reason to never abuse and to protect those being abused. You were never loved? All the more reason to be as loving as you can. You have to realize that there's a balance between yourself and the world...Without you being happy the world sucks to live in.... Without the world around you at least working, if not being happy, it sucks to be you.

You can whole up and hate the world....Leaves you with nothing. And you can't give everything to the world, cause in the end you've done nothing for yourself. If you don't feel as though you're a person worth love or kindness.... Then grow up, or better yet come let me smack you a few times.

That all being said...I understand what you're saying Alt.... But I can't abide by it....Cause if I do I allow myself the option of thinking that there's another way of living than the way I do...and right now I can't afford that.

heh... the Perks of Being a Wallflower?

Alto, you read some decent books.

Hm.
Essentially, the fault I still find in all of this is that you are imposing your own uninvolved, objective logic on a situation where logic is not part or parcel to nearly anything at all.
A logic that would in all probability fail to meet its own standards were the situation to arise against it, or itself possesses its own triggers which would induce it into absolute chaos and confusion.
A logic that is not facing the experiences in question, and apparently refuses to consider how the situation could play beyond its own conclusions.
A logic that is ultimately useless whereas anything worldly or beyond theory is concerned, as it either fails or does not wish to conceive of the world beyond its own conclusions, and imposes itself in generalities and blanket statements on a subject of intricate complexity, a complexity of such a nature that it in all likeliness requires each scenario of the topic in question to be taken in a case by case manner.

As well, your conceptions of fear I find simple and wanting.
This alongside your failure to account for any other of the plethora of emotions that come marching aside fear in such situations.

In any case, I suppose I have no compulsion to continue beyond that.

As always, Ixz, discussing you has been interesting.

Essentially I find your explanations to be overly complex and wordy. Just because a logic is simple doesn't mean it is flawed. If I'm hungry I seek food. If I'm cold I seek warmth. If I am in pain I seek a cure for that pain.

And fear is not a complex mechanism. It's a simple flight trigger. If a person is afraid or under duress because someone they think they love is beating the shiz out of them, the fear trigger isn't telling them to stay there..it's telling them to run. It's their own moronic idealism of a loving relationship and the thoughts on what a person is or isn't capable of that keep them from leaving. Hence, and in much simpler words mind you, it their own damn fault.

Respond if you want or not. I really don't care. You're taking some complex approach to a very simple situation; live in fear and pain, or live without it. That's the choice these people make.

And I'd like to apologize for my logic being uninvolved. I'm sorry I've never let anyone abuse me. Trust me, it's not necessarily from lack of people trying. Next time I'll keep my mouth shut unless I positively have been involved in the situation.

You don't have to be involved in a situation to provide insight about it. Basic psychology is that my reality is not your reality. My mind is obviously not your mind. Your brain functions one way, someone else functions another. For some people happiness is a choice. Others it's a terrible upward battle with moments where you'd rather just be depressed than tired from trying to be happy. For some people when they feel fear they run away from the fear, other are frozen to the spot and cannot move. When some feel pain, they enjoy it. Just because it's black and white for you, does not mean it can't be gray or maroon or off-white or brick-red for someone else. You do not know how the mind of a victim of domestic abuse works, neither do I. Through observation we can see that they obviously don't have the same basic choice you and me would have of either stay and get hit or leave and be lonely. Sometimes I think I'd rather be beaten than lonely.

Kajak, you absolutely nailed it. Grade A post.



That's a really bad off way to be, my man. Why can't you NOT be beaten AND NOT be lonely?

All I have to say is that this is a big damn ocean with a lot of fish in it. You can be damn sure if my particular fish gives me food poisoning I'm not gonna sit there and keep eating the same damn thing...

And yes...of course the world is gray. No duh. Nothing is black and white...but that doesn't mean the thought behind it can't be...If you feel poorly enough about yourself that you will allow someone to abuse you...Well then f*ck you you deserve your fate. That's my black and white thought behind this whole gray mess.

Oh, and one situation I guess I can open my mouth on is masochism. It's not quite as enjoyable when it's unwilling.

I also agree with the fight or flight "mechanism", but this once again pulls me into different directions -where as an abused child may want to flee their abusive parent, but at the same time, they do not want their family to get "split up" as a result. "The thought of me losing my sisters always kept my mouth shut to social workers."

Sure, you could also seek help from authorities as well if you happen to be an abused women, but the prison sentence only lasts so long, not to mention the fear that she would probably live in. If I had someone sent off to jail, I would be riddled with the fear that either escape, or an ended sentence would soon lead that person back to me.

Also, you could enter the fray of a couple's fight, but who's to say that the woman won't fight you back for "hurting her man" or even vice versa for that matter. Just because a woman is getting abused by "her man", does not always mean she is asking or in needing of a rescue.

I guess once again, it relies on the person's own point of view about the situations.

*Ugh.....torn in two.*

If ones lacks sympathy just because one LACKS sympathy then there really isn't anything that any one can say. How can someone have sympathy when there is none to be had?

It just seems that many of you are saying that your lack is the logical conclusion of witnessing the situation.

It does not seem that you embrace the logical difference between a point of view in first person and one in third person.

But if my third person point of view regarding your first person perspectives is, becomes, or continues to be inaccurate such that you are misunderstood, then maybe a personal shift from first to third person will impress you that you are not the only one who is misunderstood, thus consistently arriving at actual logical sympathy.

Just to butt in a bit, there are typically more levels of fear involved than just the fear of getting beaten. Many people will think well if he beats me now, what will he do when I leave? A perfectly rational response given the irrational situation and mindset some have been mentioning. Also many don't want others help for the express reason that they don't want to impose the risk of harm on others.

So yes while the logical choice is just to up and leave, it's not usually quite that simple. Especially since the woman is typically not the bread winner, and finding someone is not always as easy as people make it out to be, especially if you're in abusive relationship, getting out is not the easiest thing to do. Also some local economies are really bad so getting employment is not always so easy.

While there are millions of rebuttals to some of these statements, there is also circumstances that validate them as well. I think the point is it all depends on the given situation and person and their mental state. So it's not always the victims fault, especially if no one else offers/insists to help (not necessarily by being a knight in shining armor). Sometimes it's not as easy as just willing things to happen, especially once you're pretty far down the road (the world is not very logical).

Sometimes it's a choice between an existence of abuse or the risk of death (which btw has an unknown outcome). And the police are not a guarantee of safety, and most people don't get life for abuse, so they eventually get out, which is another fear. So while irrational it's at least somewhat understandable.

So while I don't have a whole lot of sympathy in general for those who do nothing about their situation (tell someone, the police, etc), I do empathise with the victim in some situations and realize things aren't always as simple as they seem, and fear of the unknown can sometimes be greater than fear of the known (the saying better to be with the devil you know comes to mind).

Just things to consider for those thinking in pure logical terms.

I think Ix is into the whole cave man thing. Club the woman
with a bat and have your way with them.

Does not sound like such a bad thing does it?

But trying to hurt someone you know who is weaker I think is bad. Best to walk away then to end a life.

If you think that, then you didn't read what I said.

I just wouldn't bother.

Yeah I know. But most women are stupid anyways. So I can relate. Either a woman should go out of her way to make there man happy. Or they should just leave if there not happy. But to stay with someone your not happy with is stupid. And serves them right.

Just sitting around b*tching is what most girls do. And thats all they do. They don't take action and leave if there not happy.

Edit: PS. Love the new swear filter, 'bit*hing" - "b*tching"

yeah, i think sumisem did that? it caused in me some rofl.

Yeah its a bit long though. But heck, not like theres a word limit on here. lol

Quickly out of topic just to make a remark: the Mag has the most awesome swear filter evah. Sometimes I catch myself saying 'cluck' to my English teacher.

@kittykicker

I can't agree that it 'serves them right'. It sounds like you are angry with people or women for having a 'nature'.

People do not seem to be able to equally grasp the type of relationship they are in, even if it is abusive, or have the resolve to get out. Sometimes acting like a female dog is their natural way of dealing with the situation.

It is in the nature of many men and women both to resent people for this inequality and for OTHER individuals whining, crying, or comlaining. Peopel often whine, cry, or complain about other people whining, crying, or complaining.

But blame seems missplaced as god/evolution did not provide us individually with equal starting conditions/training/ or potenatial.

So while women who 'decide' to stay in an abusive situation might be expected to suffer, and it might be frustrating to watch this happen to a fiend, loved one, or simply fellow sentient being, I am concerned about the notion that "it serves them right".

I am sorry to single you out KK but I am really just using this opportunity to express my position to others in this post as well, especially those that feel even more stronger and more negative than you do about these types of victims.

EDIT: I noticed KK that you are not necessarily talking about someone in an abusive relationship, but you are definitley talking about someone who is not doing more to leave a situation they are unhappy in. My position regards either case, but I do think that they greater the pain that someone is suffering, the more they can benefit from empathy.