So we have problems with how people say things.

Example/Catalyst in this topic: http://www.rpgmmag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4391

Ixzion says:


Which makes enough sense, yesno?

Examples of the following from mentioned topic:

1. Keep debates squarely focused on opinions and don't attack members.






This is how you personally attack members, when you're speaking directly about the person and not the idea. In conversation, naturally, topics deviate. So I'm going to add 'keep on topic' to Ixzion's list. Where topic is a subject that members can converse about, and not conversing about a member. If the topic deviates in a thread that is fine with me, I believe that if topics were to be static we would have thousands of very very short threads.



True. There are two basic options, one is a personal attack, and the other is when someone says something strongly opinion and another takes it personally.

Example:






In this example an opinion was created, then a point on the opinion was created, then the point was taken personally.




Whether it is 'stated' specifically as an opinion or not, this is an 'Opinion' forum. Thus in a topic people are stating their opinion on the subject. If they say something and it sounds like they are making a fact, remember that it's not a fact, it's an opinion regardless of the tone or manner it is written in, or how you read it. If you get offended by someone's tone, it doesn't mean they are personally attacking you. Take a step back to figure out the difference before taking it personally.

I believe the idea of a discussion, is to discuss the topic at hand? People will disagree, then you discuss the disagreement, if someone disagrees with your opinion and makes a point on it - consider the point, discuss the point, if you don't feel like doing that much work then ignore it.

ACTION PLAN:

Let's, from now on, include a link to this post and quote these five points at the beginning of a thread. Annoying I'm sure, but I can almost guarantee that not everyone who posts in here will read this topic, and if nothing else it might help us remember to keep it somewhat friendly.
Like this:



Discuss.

I think this is a good start.

but...

your criteria are too vague, for one thing; there are more ways to be offensive than straight-up personal attack.

smugness, disdain, ignoring another person and their post outright, for instance. if you're seriously telling me to sit down and suck that up, i might as well say this much.

this isn't a solution on your part, because you haven't addressed what everyone finds to be a problem, just the most obvious complaints from only some of the members. you've shut down some member's complaints while pandering to others, in order to make this place 'nice'.

part of the problem here is exactly that members are just swapping opinions. it can actually go on forever as one person or the other swap opinions. it's the most tedious, counterproductive thing to ever appear on a thread in a forum, and i see no attempt to address that problem here. how about a little message of 'take it to PM'? How about someone with some authority say anything at all?

or maybe it's fine. maybe we're allowed to clutter the place with opinions, maybe that isn't one of the most annoying and anti-social things possible on a forum.

if you're wondering what happened to the easy-going Chat forum we used to have, well... people started actually caring about the topics, rather than about having a good time with one another.

and sure, maybe debate is your idea of a good time. if it's not everyone's, you need to consider those people who don't enjoy it.

but that's the point, isn't it? these measures, attitudes on this forum, what is acceptable and what is not around here right now?

just aren't balanced.

have you not been wondering where half of the members went, from the Chat forum? did they all mysteriously reduce their posting for other reasons, or vanish from the forum and in a couple of cases the mag almost entirely, by random coincidence? or maybe they all got sick of the way things go around here, and hide in the chatroom or pop in for visits to the Video Games forum. Ixz himself said he doesn't like looking in these threads, because all people do is swap words.

Seriously. last time i looked, Ixz, you were in charge.

...and Sumisem, Feros (though i don't think he bothers to go into Opinion anymore either. might be wrong, but he hasn't posted in there for a month), Chrssy too, wherever she is.

Back when someone suggested the forums be split at all, i think this was said;



this kindly guidance you're giving us poor souls will probably help, in some respects, but it seems quite a lot like you're bringing a water pistol to a burning building.

...

ah, screw it. part of me doesn't want to post this, because it's perhaps a little strongly stated (rofl). part of me doesn't want to get into another debate on this forum, just to do what i always want to (and never actually) do and used to be able to do; post, move on.

i think that when members start thinking like that, you've actually got a problem. i think you haven't addressed it, that it was obviously coming for a long time and would've been easy to prevent, and that your telling us off for it is... justified, but still unproductive. It seems like you're going to lay down some laws for us, and if you're going to tell us all how to behave, you should do it properly.

[spoiler]it's not characteristic of me to outright rant at other people, i know at least one person around here noticed the oddity of it.

i honestly hate to do it, not least because i like and i really think i do appreciate the value of everyone around here. except maybe Megaman >_<

but i've been doing it recently, instead of being more diplomatic (as i'd really like to have been), mostly so i can make this point here and now (earlier than i wanted to make it, tbh, but i suppose it's a good enough time).

things seem unbalanced, and just like i'll happily flood a forum to revive it, i'll be as anti-social and superior as i need to be and risk alienating people i treat as friends, to make my point clear.

You might think that my doing that for this was wierd, but it's the way i do things, and it can be effective.[/spoiler]

In conclusion;

maybe i'm overreacting and overthinking, but to me;

things seem a bit... broken.

*shrug*
Ban me.

Not a smug or disdainful invitation, but a request.
I see no reason to continue in the Opinion forums.
It's all become decidedly less amusing on all fronts, and entirely too much to bother with.
I also have no willpower when I decide something might be good to do. So, I don't want the option to go back in here. If you please, ban me from the Opinion forums.

On second thought, this should probably be in a pm, but I'm already here.

or we could just close this forum *shrug*

I've read both of the posts, and I'm wondering:

What exactly is the problem?

Regal, you mention that there's a problem we're overlooking. I'm glad that you brought it to our attention, but you need to explain what it is.

Shut down some member complaints? When?

If there's some problems in this, then it is possible to work them out. But ONLY if you talk about them. We can't fix things if we can't see the problem.

We ignore no one.

hmm.

.. i'm just thinking, really... if you ask most of the members, especially the ones who you only see much of in Magchat nowadays, you get a vague idea of what i think's wrong.

as i've heard expressed;









i think the problem is that everything's being taken too seriously. there's too much disagreement purely for the sake of debate or discussion, and too little recognition that other people actually have worthwhile opinions, which they might be forwarding not so people can disagree with them, but because they wanted us to know what they think.

instead, people are getting jumped on, and when someone gets jumped on it leads to a post that cripples the topic itself, then as they try to defend themself, other people try to drag the thread back on-topic and the topic falls into two halves, and the people who care more (the ones debating) effectively kill off the original conversation in their zeal, as everyone else just gives up on it.

... there's not enough... iunno. respect for that. things are being taken too seriously. do you have an idea of what i mean yet, or not?

as for shutting down member's complaints...

well, KA would be a good example. 1ce agreed with at least part of his summary of people's attitudes, and i have to admit i totally agree;



and when i say 'shut down'... well, in what we're talking about here, i see no mention of what they were really talking about; an unwillingess to respect other people's opinions, rather than seeing them as targets, and i see no real resolution to the problems that a wide variety of members have complained about. it's not actively silencing them, but it amounts to the same thing; these words were, as far as i can tell, never really taken seriously enough.

it's hard to know how to resolve those problems, since most of them are attitudinal in much the same way spamming became a problem, before the Spam Hammer was ultimately killed off... it started off with a few people, then spread outwards to other users and forums like a virus, or a bad habit.

i know you don't ignore people, that's why i felt i would benefit from saying this as best i could, even if i am wrong or exaggerating. i didn't want to say anything before now, partly because it would've seemed even more... excessive, mostly because i was still unsure as to... the whole thing.

I think its a good thing to have a mediator when it comes to some of the topics.

I never really got along with people. I honestly can say this forum is the closest I ever got to being friends with a group of people. And I know its because of the good people here. Sumisum, Ix, Feros, Regal,Angentsix,Kumo and many others I see are out to helping problems. Banning the right people and keeping peace around here. I'm glad to say that there are not any jackasses on this sight.


There are sometimes problems with people who take everything the wrong way all the time. You mean something in a nice way. And people are like.. No! your trying to insult me.

Also including my self.. I admit that people don't always start out on the right foot when meeting someone new. People start to hold a grudge. And have bad feelings about someone with out even getting to know them on a personal level. I admit like some of us including my self, have a problem with having "bottled up anger". Like lets say.. I did not like something that KA said on a thread. But I just let him say what he wants because thats all I can really do. Then I see on other threads that he says other things I don't like. After a while.. I just want to kill him.
But I been getting to know him on a more personal level. And I have lost a lot of the bad feelings I had tords him. I'm happy about that.

@Regal No we should not keep closing fourms. Theres a communication problem. We should open the doors of communication insted of running from the problem.

Banning people, I don't think that should be the issue. I do think there are more debates where personal feelings are mixed.

^Agreed..

I was just saying.. The reason why this is a peacful place is beacuse you did a good job weeding out the loosers and kept all the winners.

The Mag is the first forum/topic site that I have ever been active on. At first I thought everyone would be like we and want to argue or debate. I also thought everyone would like to let the topic evolve into another topic. I thought that everyone like me would consider this to be the exemplary form of communication and value it as such.

The some members started telling me that I was arguing too much or going off topic too much, or that my comments were not appropriate for the particular forum they were made in. I am doing my best to receive this feedback and adapt.

The ‘Toplessness’ forum (see the clear description of the forum)

http://www.rpgmmag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4391

was meant to be the appropriate way of letting what had evolved for Kittykicker’s original everyday forum “I;ve been out enjoying the sunâ€

Yeah, I think you did the right thing..

I would not worry about what KA has to say about being topless. Because think about it. I don't think hes the type to run around on a beach naked. I could be wrong. But I don't think he knows a whole lot about it to say anything bad about it. I think hes trying to be silly about things.

I know how you feel. Trust me I do. He has a lot of negitive things to say. But that is his right. And his opinion. And You should do what we all do and just say,"whatever" and listen to the posts that do matter to you. Some times I do think hes got some funny things to say. Even if the glass seems half empty. Don't worry so much.

I appreciate your comments, but I want to clearly convey that I do not rely on KA or anyone else's personal opinion in and of itself, but rather relative to everyone else's opinon. In other words, I don't just want to say, "whatever" and listen to the posts that do matter to me because the posts that matter to me are the ones that examine his motivations or beliefs to makes such comments and other people's motivations or beliefs to ignore them. That is where my interest lies.

I hope there is some area of the mag where this is considerd valuable but I understand that there might be no place in the Mag for that.

@nly - wish has been granted.

as for everyone else, if you would like to not see this forum, ask and ye shall recieve.

Everything else. I'm working on a response to.

Too vauge. If I'm remembering correctly this is the same kind of thing people kept saying before the Spam Hammer was closed for good.

If nobody on the forum can use their own head to figure out what is conversation versus what is abusive venting then I suppose closing this section is something I should think about. Personally, I have a bit more faith in the members of this forum than that.



I'm more inclined to agree with Kittykicker on this one. Closing forums doesn't actually solve any of the issues we might have with understanding one another or stop members from taking things seriously.



I'm afraid I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Being cluttered with opinion makes me think of the threads in which a question is posed, lets say 'do you like red cheese or blue cheese?' and every subsequent post is made in response to that saying whether they like red or blue cheese. That I could see as relatively anti-social. In context of a debate/discussion involving opinions and ideas (which is what this thread is centered around) I'm not sure how it fits.



Note that this is one element of the chat forum. There are in total Five. One subforum that invites threads that are of a more serious nature doesn't actually have any impact on the other parts of the Chat forum group. If a discussion is getting too serious for a different part of the chat then I invite you to do as Bo did and make a new thread for it in here. If you don't like serious threads then don't participate in the conversation.

As for the rest of what you said - I havn't noticed chat being less active. The forums were split because it was becoming More active. It havn't noticed that the activity has lessened since they were split actually. I'm honestly sorry that you view this board as a burning building.

The point of this thread wasn't to tell anyone off or to lay out laws or tell anyone how to behave. I think that the members of this board are mature enough to figure out how to behave towards each other. I'm not a babysitter. The point of the thread was to make a suggestion in hopes to instigate a solution to the issue. So thank you for your input ^_^

Anonymous Bo, you've said that you thought people on forums would be more up for debate. One part of fitting into a community is reading and learning the mode of operation. In this forum we don't really get into debates much and as you can see some of us get very touchy about the whole thing. As a fellow member of this forum you bring yourself to the table as well, you don't have to change who you are to be part of the community. I think you're doing a pretty good job at this. Yes, you do tend to get serious in topics. But what you did with this particular thread in making a new one in the more serious forum was a good move. It takes it away from the light topics and the people who want to read light topics. And for those who don't want to participate or read around the long posts, they don't have to participate.

As far as Kratos's comments go on feeling shut down. I don't really have much to say. Mostly due to the way you handled opposition. I can empathise with feeling jumped on by everyone at once. I think if you did take the time to cool down and articulate a response on how you feel, or on the subject itself members would be a bit more understanding towards you.

((note on double post: putting this in a new post so that people can see it has been updated))

Feedback still appreciated.

The main problem that I've seen in this forum is that you're all treating these topics as debates when we should be treating them as Socratic Seminars. I myself welcome Bo's constant questioning. I want to see how people came to the conclusions they've made so that I can better make decisions myself. I love this forum, I don't participate as much as I should. Please don't close it down though. What is the least lacking on this forum is respect for other members as Regal mentioned. Realize that EVERYONE on these forums has something you could learn from about them, even Megaman. Treat others as you wish to be treated, so don't blow up on members. I already have admin powers and if you wish I could start to silently moderate this forum. I truly do admire these types of forums.

you might not have noticed the place getting quieter, but at least half of the Mag has, just go take a look at KA's thead. the word in operation, i think, is 'dead'. i've also heard a lot of rationalisation 'oh, it's summer', but it in no way convinces me.

i don't remember anyone saying anything about vagueness before the spam hammer was closed, but i do notice a certain similarity between that case and this;

- anti social behaviour developed.
- we were all told to keep it under control
- that failed to happen (admittedly, after a good start)
- spam hammer was closed.

actually, your red cheese/blue cheese example is an example of a conversation that remains strictly on-topic. which is the standing rule around here. your standing rule.

also, you quoted me out of context anyway; it's exactly that argumentative, thread-hijacking swapping of ideas that is actually putting off members. go ask Genji or Facts (though he has pc issues, he doesn't really post when he is around anymore) why they don't post anymore. hell, even most of the admins around here don't go into Opinion. the way it is, it's a stifling social deathtrap.

i haven't asked them, but i'm guessing it's not because they find the place all the much fun anymore.

anyway. don't quote me out of context, if you're going to turn around and say you don't get what i mean. or vice versa; if you're not sure you get it, don't quote just half of it.

oh, btw... you are a babysitter, whether that's what you want to be doing or not. this thread itself is an attempt to babysit, just a very polite one.

i honestly barely care anymore, i'm pretty sure that i'm gonna stop posting in community forums, maybe the whole mag.

i figure it'll improve the place, or something.

at any rate, like i've tried to say before, you have a problem of balance; how to encourage healthy debate and discussion, without alienating member who feel intimidated by the whole thing, or feel, in Fact's words, like they have 'nothing to say' and hence don't post.

or as far as you're concerned we don't really have a problem at all, the members just need to be told off a little bit by their resident non-babysitter.

I really don't want to see less and less forums on the mag. I wish we can all be adults about these topics. And I do understand that its hard to be an adult when theres other people who are not acting respectable. Its really hard to make everyone happy.

By closing down forums we are limiting our selves. Why should we do that? We all have rights? This is a free posting place. Free to speak your mind. With out flaming of course. I don't like having my hands tied.. do you?

I'm glad that Sumi likes what I have to say. However I am sad that there are others who would rather not have an opinion forum. We need to be adults about this.

Even if there is no opinion forum, people will still state there opinions anyway. And as long as some of us don't get along with others there will always be problems. Thats why I was trying my damness to get along with KA. I want no problems. I want us to have freedom.

Thats just it.. Freedom. Its supposed to be a good thing.
But everyone is afraid of it. Why? Because yes your free to say what ever you want. And that also means its ok for others to hurt your feelings. And it should not be that way. We need to work on getting along with each other.. It has nothing to do with the forums.

I am not happy either about the closing of the Hammer.
But, I do believe it brought us closer together as friends, to talk about normal things then just random posts. And I think thats where most of the "clutter" was.

heh. did you not notice the amount of jurisdiction your own government has over your life?

where, exactly, are you allowed in daily life to 'be an adult'?

... when you say that, you're referring to giving everyone a freedom of action that perhaps they shouldn't be given unconditionally.

this site has rules because it doesn't trust us to 'be adults'. if you look at your life closely, you'll notice that this freedom you're talking about is basically a myth.

is it a good thing? maybe. but you have to be careful what you wish for. I kinda think that people have already been alienated because our free and thoughtless actions have alienated them. not every problem will be solved by an argument and then reconciliation. some people will just see what we do with our 'freedom' and decide that this isn't their kind of place anymore.

so yeah; 'be adults'.

abstract notions like that don't really help us at all. if anything, they're counter-productive, because we're dealing with a real problem that won't be fixed without a real solution, and i don't see you doing anything here except shooting down suggestions based on entirely abstract and rather questionable grounds.

cute and appealing at first glance as they may be ^^;

You can only help the people who want the help. Your right.. at this point I really have no idea what I can do other then just think that closing forums is a bad idea.

I'm sorry to say.

But come on.. I love you guys too much to see anything bad happen.

My dream is to have a place where people respect each other and have fun. Sure, we can be super-serious sometimes, but we still have respect after it's over.

I think we need to try out some ideas about now.