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PostPosted: June 15th, 2007, 11:58 am 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manc ... 736809.stm

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The Church of England is considering legal action against entertainment firm Sony for featuring Manchester Cathedral in a violent PlayStation video game.
The Church says Sony did not obtain permission to use the interior in the war game Resistance: Fall of Man.

The game, which has sold more than one million copies, shows a virtual shoot-out in the cathedral's nave in which hundreds of enemies are killed.

Sony said it believed it had sought all necessary permission for the game.

'Not reality'

The company said in a statement: "Sony Computer Entertainment Europe is aware of the concerns expressed by the Bishop of Manchester and the cathedral authorities... and we naturally take the concerns very seriously.

"Resistance: Fall of Man is a fantasy science fiction game and is not based on reality.

"We believe we have sought and received all permissions necessary for the creation of the game."

The firm said it would be contacting the cathedral authorities on Monday "to understand their concerns in more detail".

But the Church said Sony did not ask for permission to use the cathedral and has demanded an apology and the removal of the game from shop shelves - otherwise it will consider legal action.

"It is well known that Manchester has a gun crime problem," he said.

"For a global manufacturer to re-create one of our great cathedrals with photo-realistic quality and then encourage people to have guns battles in the building is beyond belief and highly irresponsible.

"Here in Manchester we do all we can to support communities through our parish clergy. We know the reality of gun crime and the devastating effects it can have on lives. It is not a trivial matter."

The Dean of Manchester Cathedral, the Very Reverend Rogers Govender, added the game was "undermining" the work of the church.

"We are shocked to see a place of learning, prayer and heritage being presented to the youth market as a location where guns can be fired.

"This is an important issue. For many young people these games offer a different sort of reality and seeing guns in Manchester Cathedral is not the sort of connection we want to make.

"Every year we invite hundreds of teenagers to come and see the cathedral and it is a shame to have Sony undermining our work."

'Mythical'

Patsy McKie, from Mothers Against Violence, whose son Dorrie was killed in Manchester, said it was time to stand up to the makers of violent games.

"I believe it's something that needs to be taken seriously first by the Church but also by parents.

"There's a war going on - not just in Iraq, but right here on our doorstep."

Sony described the game as being set "in an alternate and mythical version of Europe in the 1950s, in which the enemy are strange-looking alien invaders seeking to destroy humanity".

Earlier, David Wilson, a Sony spokesman, told The Times newspaper: "It is game-created footage, it is not video or photography.

"It is entertainment, like Doctor Who or any other science fiction. It is not based on reality at all. Throughout the whole process we have sought permission where necessary."


If I'm not mistaken... the games been out for, um... a while now? I know the UK didn't get PS3 till a later on date, but I'd think it would be something found out in like, a week... not four months.

Tim Buckley from CAD Comics wrote:
How did they find out? I mean, I'm sure they don't have a team of clergy sitting around playing video games all day, sniffing out religious references. So then I imagine it was just some religious player, but then where's the logic there? He's sitting, playing along "Doo-dee-doo, I have no problems with all the guns and blood and violence in this game, and war is great, and -- whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?! They used a real church?! BLASPHEMY!"


*glomps Tim*

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PostPosted: June 15th, 2007, 1:16 pm 
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i'd heard about the lawsuit, but that quote from Tim Buckley kicks ass.

i think it's amusing, tbh. i don't get what grounds the church even HAVE to sue, their suit is based on the fact one can't film the interior of the cathedral... but as far as i know (and i might be misinformed), Sony actually used images from the Cathedral's own virtual tour;

http://www.manchestercathedralonline.co.uk/gallery.html

to produce the game environment.

*shrug* if that's as i've heard, and looking at the virtual tour and the game it really could be (i've seen the virtual tour and played the game), i'm kinda confused as to why the church seems to be going after Sony here. Seems slightly less than rational, imo.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2007, 2:38 pm 
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Pfft, like sony will remove the games and give them an apology. If they shouldn't have to use their permission for creating a virtual church from their virtual tour.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2007, 2:46 pm 
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I would like to reiterate again how long it took them to notice. I mean the game released almost 6 months ago. And even if you take into the account that the UK didn't get the PS3 till 2 months later, it doesn't make sense how long it has taken for them to take action.

If anything they should be laughted at just now realizing it...

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PostPosted: June 15th, 2007, 3:52 pm 
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So what if it took them a long time. Maybe they were weighing their options? If the statute of limitaitons has not passed then they did not take too long to file their lawsuit.

So what if there is violence in the games (from the quote). Maybe they realized that one way to try to stand up against violence is to sue companies that produce or distribute violent games when they have a chance, thus using this opportunity to try to take a stand.

Legal merit notwithstanding, I don't see the extraneous criticisms as fair.

EDIT:
Legal merit notwithstanding, I don't see the extraneous criticisms as pertinent.

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PostPosted: June 15th, 2007, 4:35 pm 
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PostPosted: June 19th, 2007, 5:26 pm 
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Violent video games does not make violent people. End of story.

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2007, 5:32 pm 
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Correction of story: Violent games do not make intelligent people violent.
There are always those donkeyholes who take things too seriously, but luckily they are very very few.

Even though I still think this whole thing is kinda pointless.
A debate about it should go in Opinion, but is it just me or churches seem to always be involved in some kind of weird, bizarre and often pointless lawsuit against some banal matter?


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PostPosted: June 19th, 2007, 8:08 pm 
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I say we go down to the church and Spray paint on the sides SONY IS THE DEVIL. HAIL SONY! :lol

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 9:28 am 
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The Gnasher wrote:
A debate about it should go in Opinion...


We had one at one point. It was around after one of the school shootouts... but has since drifted back into the pages of the forums.

Anyway, I really doubt the church is going to get anything from this. I mean, you can argue some serious points here. What about the Islamic mosques? I mean, that's real life issues... But Manchester Cathedral wants to cry over a video game?

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 1:08 pm 
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Lantis wrote:
I mean, you can argue some serious points here. What about the Islamic mosques? I mean, that's real life issues... But Manchester Cathedral wants to cry over a video game?


Is the mosque comparison one of the serious points you can argue?

One could say that while what happens to some Islamic Mosques is much worse, what happened to the Manchester Cathedral is still sufficiently negative.

Why don't you think it is?

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 1:24 pm 
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The Gnasher wrote:
There are always those donkeyholes who take things too seriously, but luckily they are very very few.


Brazil must be a wonderful place, then.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 2:09 pm 
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Anonymous Bo wrote:
Lantis wrote:
I mean, you can argue some serious points here. What about the Islamic mosques? I mean, that's real life issues... But Manchester Cathedral wants to cry over a video game?


Is the mosque comparison one of the serious points you can argue?

One could say that while what happens to some Islamic Mosques is much worse, what happened to the Manchester Cathedral is still sufficiently negative.

Why don't you think it is?


Well I do think it's somewhat negative... but 'suffeient' may not be the work I'd use. They aren't representing the Cathedral as evil. They aren't even saying anything towards how the church is ran, nor it's religious beliefs. The protagonists and antagonists of a video game run throught for a short period of time.

It's like trying to take someone to court for cutting you off in a turning lane.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 2:19 pm 
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Well the church might take it more seriously.

To me the church is just a building, but to some, it is a holy place.

How would people like it if there was a video game made in which someone humped a virtual image of a loved one's tombstone? It's not real, it's just an image, it's just a video game.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 2:29 pm 
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They can take it as serious as they want... but it doesn't change the fact that the "offense" wasn't anything anyone's every tried to sue aginst before. Take the games off the shelf? Sure... 4 months out and they want a re-call? Hardly think that's going to happen.

And while I understand what you mean about the desicration of someone's tombstone... It wasn't THAT offensive. It's a geographic location... that you run through. It's not like you stay there spraypainting pentagrams and slaughter the clergy there.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 3:19 pm 
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Someones gotta tell them that there going to burn in hell for
Suing Sony. :lol

That should get them to think twice. :P

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 3:52 pm 
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Lantis wrote:
They can take it as serious as they want... but it doesn't change the fact that the "offense" wasn't anything anyone's every tried to sue aginst before. Take the games off the shelf? Sure... 4 months out and they want a re-call? Hardly think that's going to happen.

And while I understand what you mean about the desicration of someone's tombstone... It wasn't THAT offensive. It's a geographic location... that you run through. It's not like you stay there spraypainting pentagrams and slaughter the clergy there.


Their is always a first time for suing regarding a given 'offense'and if they have no basis then it would be proper that the case be dismissed or that it is not found in favor for them.

Offense is in the eye of the beholder.

I hope this case is argued from both sides with respect to what is reasonable and proper, and maybe what is in the interest of the public good.

But if they have a fair legal basis, then I will look forward to the case causing the backlash that it may regarding the standard by which someone can control images of their property and regarding the way in which it is presented.

In other words, I hope that most will agree with you that the standard should be what is considered fair use of the imagery instead of personal feelings about their property.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 3:56 pm 
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I am religious. I belive in God... and I believe to have a standing relationship with Him. If someone took MY home church and used it in the same mannor... I wouldn't get bent unless it offended God, himself. And from what I can tell, that whole section had nothing to do with the like.

But I do agree with you that it will be an interesting case if they do, in fact, find grounds for suing.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2007, 10:03 pm 
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Religion has nothing to do with it really. I mean look at adult swim's bible fight game. Anyway this has been going on for 6 months, in the first month they would've noticed it. Sony has apologized but still I agree with them to not remove the games from the shelves.


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